GTBK Marketing Dennis Tubbergen

[joeblow]

I am the tax attorney that developed the "Charitable IRA", commonly referred to as the CHIRA TM concept approved in PLR 200741016 after several years in review with the IRS. In May of 2008, I received correspondence from the NY DOI (search 200741016, New York, Insurable Interest). A patent application was filed for this in 2005 and this can be found at the USPTO website searching for Delaney as inventor.

The NY DOI correspondence indicates that life/SPIA arbitrages will fail for lack of insurable interest.

Can you point me to this please? I didn't read that at all. Just for the record, I've never seen an "arbitrage" case where the math worked, but I've also never heard the "lack of insurable interest" argument and don't see how that's applicable.

Re: CHIRA - wouldn't a similar structure loan work even more easily if the donation came out of liquid assets as opposed to an IRA?

 

[Doug Delaney]

So your Charitable IRA works and others may not? What is the average case? I may be working with some deserving charities soon to help them raise money.

Yes, in addition to subjecting the charity to intellectual property issues, this planning is very form driven. As with any planning, there are factors to be considered. Short cuts are dangerous when dealing with any tax exempt or deferred entity. After completing the regulatory approval stage and product development, we have several charitable organizations that have approved the plan and are in various stages of donor engagement. The cases vary in size ($50k - $1M+) and we anticipate our first several closings within 60 days. We have methodically planned the introduction of this planning for over 7 years and it is important to properly educate the charitable organization and screen the proper donor. Measure twice, cut once.
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Can you point me to this please? I didn't read that at all. Just for the record, I've never seen an "arbitrage" case where the math worked, but I've also never heard the "lack of insurable interest" argument and don't see how that's applicable.

Re: CHIRA - wouldn't a similar structure loan work even more easily if the donation came out of liquid assets as opposed to an IRA?

Sorry, I can't figure out how to post the site b/c I don't have enough posts to this forum. However, go to Google, use the search terms I mention (200741016, New York and Insurable Interest) and you will see the correspondence. It pulls up as Insurable Interest. Simplistically, putting yourself in the shoes of the charity, if the closing proceeds are distributed 95% to a life policy and annuity contract, the net effect to the charity is nominal from a current cash flow perspective. Historically, and without getting too much into the pros/cons of this arbitrage, it has been gaming such as this that, while enriching the agent, leaves the charity questionably lacking. At least that is the apparent position of the NY DOI. As a board member of a charity, I would probably come to the same conclusion notwithstanding the fact the annuity contract is owned by the charity. We want the plan to benefit the charity today and return to family upon death. With any case, it is critical to plan for exit strategy.

With respect to your second question, yes, if an individual had liquid assets outside of the IRA, they could certainly make a gift of their insurable interest (as they do in CHIRA TM) along with a gift or loan of cash to charity to sustain the premium. This is, however, a different fact pattern. The thrust of CHIRA TM is to enable donors, with significant retirement accounts, to redirect this economic power in a pre-tax manner for the benefit of charity. In your facts, the liquid assets have presumably been taxed and are in the donors after-tax environment.

 

[solagent]

Has anyone looked at the recent idea that costs $3,500 per month to become a "licensee"? It sounds like agents all over the country are going to Grand Rapids to see a charitable giving programbased on a SPIA and a no lapse Life contract, not tied to an IRA. Claim is 28k. average commission. Is this just a scam to get agent's money or can it actually work?

 

[Mr. Bill]

Solagent, read Doug Delaney's posts, that should answer your question.

 

[LWeiner]

Yes, I worked with them. Past tense. Very expensive lesson. You can email me if you like.

I would greatly appreciate having a discussion with you. I have been at a presentation and am considering working with them on their "Legacy Program". Can I call you to discuss your experience with them? Thanks.

Lawrence Weiner
248-305-9911
[email protected]

 

[DGPA]

My advice: Be very careful with these guys. I participated in their seminars, and by their own admission, their marketing strategies and business model are all borrowed from Dan Kennedy (you can learn it from his books instead). There is even some dispute about the legality of their claimed trademarks on financial and tax planning concepts.

My experience: I had received a written guarantee from their principal that they failed to honor in a timely manner. After over 6 MONTHS of e-mails, faxes, and voicemail messages that were ignored or passed from desk to desk, I was forced to hire an attorney to help me collect my guaranteed refund. Yes, I eventually received the refund, but the cost and time to collect this refund indicated a lack of professionalism and integrity.

 

[Mr. Bill]

Ouch. That is a hard lesson. Most people just go away...

 

[solagent]

They seem to be on a major nationwide recruiting drive right now. They are dunning my email every day from different email addresses. They are having "seminars" all over the country as well as in their own office. There is no way they could service all of the agents they are trying to line up.

The pitch is that they have tons of clients just waiting to sign up if only there were enough agents. And just one sale could be enough to allow you to retire.

Of course, the agent is asked to send GTBK $3,500 a month for the privilege of participating. Oh, and by the way, there are other agents in YOUR area just waiting to sign up and whoever is first, is the one who gets in. Better hurry! (I'll bet they will sign up everyone who can fog a mirror, even if they all live right next door to each other.)

I found out, they have an "F" from their local Better Business Bureau. I requested a response from them regarding that fact, but they just ignored me. Too bad others can't be given this info.

 

[diasassociate]

My wife and I recently received two postcards from them with a website link and the presentation looked interesting. However, I was lost on the pitch of investing $3500 a month for a short period of time (no time length). By the way, the FINRA report did not look too impressive.

 

[Phillip Scheiber]

Any experience with this outfit?

Yes, contact me. Unless you have 35K to piss away, run like the wind, bullseye!