Long Term Disability

Discussion in 'Disability Insurance Forum' started by SPUR CITY, Aug 15, 2016.

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  1. SPUR CITY
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    SPUR CITY Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
  2. Tahoe Ray
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    Tahoe Ray Well-Known Member

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    If you can get past their B+ rating, Illinois Mutual is typically all base (albeit more expensive) vs Assurity and MoO where you'll likely need some type of social insurance supplement to max out.

    Out of curiosity, why limit yourself to those carriers (which can be solid for the right occupations)? Since this is for your own coverage, you should probably also compare some of the more white collar players as well like Principal and The Standard.

    Just my 2 cents...
     
  3. dgoldenz
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    dgoldenz Moderator Moderator

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    None of the above....Guardian, MetLife, Principal, Standard, Ohio National, Mass Mutual, Ameritas....those are the ones you should be looking at.
     
  4. scagnt83
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    scagnt83 Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with the other guys.

    Go with Assurity as your top pick. If you have issues getting approved with them, then go with MoO.

    As an FE producer you are walking around door to door all day walking through random yards and going into random houses and driving a good bit too.. This would be considered a risk class similar to a blue collar job. So the carriers you are looking at are most likely the correct ones considering your job risk.


    I like Assurity's product because they have strong features and it usually prices out lower than MoO in my experience. They also have an excellent history of rate stability if you go with a Guaranteed Renewable policy vs. a Non-Cancellable policy. (which saves you some money and allows you to increase benefits on other riders)


    Assurity also has some ancillary Riders that you can add on such as CI or Hospital Indemnity. MoO does as well, but Assurities seem to be more competitive in my experience.


    Get Assurity with as much coverage as you qualify for (or want/need). Then add these Riders for sure:
    - Own-Occ (your own occupation vs. just any occupation)
    - Residual Disability Rider
    - Future Increase Rider
    - COLA Rider if you are under 50 and have a "to age 65" policy


    If I remember correctly you are a pretty high producer... so Assurity might not offer you as much coverage as you need. You will need to go with Lloyds of London to supplement your Assurity coverage. You might even want to consider them if you do not like being limited to a 5 year period for the Own-Occ (as Assurity does). You access Lloyds via Petersen Int or a few other various Cover Holders. As a business owner, if you have overhead you need to cover you can use a BOE policy to cover those expenses.


    The other carriers such as Guardian, Ameritas, or Principle do have stronger policies that have better features and more specific language for their definition of disability. But I have a feeling given your job description that you might have issues getting approved with those carriers, or you would get approved at a poor occupation class or with a flat extra.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2016
  5. dgoldenz
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    dgoldenz Moderator Moderator

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    They don't care that you're doing face to face sales. An insurance agent is a pretty easily defined occupation class. I was given a Class 4 when I bought my Guardian policy a few years ago, can get a Class 5 with income over $100k, 5 years in the business, and a designation like CLU/ChFC/CFP/MDRT/etc.

    Assurity is also going to split the benefit amount between total disability and SSDI rider, which sucks when you can get a true own occ definition with one of the better companies on the full benefit amount.
     
  6. Tothetop
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    Tothetop Well-Known Member

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    First make sure the policy is guaranteed renewable and non-cancelable built in to the policy. That will knock off some of your options. That said if your a guy that likes all the perks, go with Guardian. Mass is not short on being a solid policy and they also offer a dividend on their policies after the fifth year in cash. Principal is also very competitive, gets the job done, and in instances is priced nicely.

    I would consider looking at Mass first. Their mod occ definition is built in while Principal's policy you have to choose how long you want that definition. That will affect the premium. However, it may not be that significant in price difference. Also depending on your state, Principal has a few interesting riders.
     
  7. scagnt83
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    scagnt83 Well-Known Member

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    You know I dont disagree about Guardian being a better policy than Assurity. It is what I personally own. Yes they give most agents Class 4 with move up opportunity.

    But this is a situation where the actual Job Duty, might not fit Guardian's definition of the Job Title. And those differences could be exposed during the phone interview.


    - I am going to make some assumptions here and Matt can correct me if I am wrong and he wants more specific advice.

    The average FE agent's job duties better fit the description of an outside sales rep. Very similar to a real estate agent in a lot of ways. I would bet that Matt exerts twice the amount of physical energy each day from work that you or I do. Many FE agents will regularly prospect door to door in an area after a sale. The average FE agent drives more and walks more than agents in other lines of insurance, mainly because they usually work 2x to 3x the amount of appointments. And Matt runs a crap load of appointments each day if I remember correctly from reading his posts.


    My point is that when they describe their typical work day on the phone interview. It is going to sound a lot more like a Realtor or Outside Sales Rep. And those are Class 3 with Guardian. And within the "Sales" guidelines, it specifically lists inside sales and office based sales as Class 4 vs. outside sales as Class 3.

    So I wouldnt be surprised if they gave him Class 3 instead of Class 4 with Guardian or most of the other usual white collar options. Which might start making it cost prohibitive to cover the entire amount he will want. Just depends. Guardian will turn down some types of outside sales reps from what my internal rep told me once.



    In my experience this is the kind of client that you definitely get an informal UW opinion on before submitting the app. Just so that there are no surprises when it issues.


    ________________________


    Matt, imo the best DI policy hands down is Guardian Life (Berkshire). It is what I personally own and it is what I almost always look to first to see if they will work for the clients occupation and premium comfort. When you compare it feature vs. feature with the others it almost always has a slight edge.

    Their rates are actually pretty reasonable as well in a lot of situations.


    The way I would handle this for a client is to first get an informal opinion from Guardian on your Occupation Class. Then you know if they are a possibility, and if so, what the premiums will most likely be.

    Then compare them to Assurity and maybe one other such as Principle.

    Guardian will have the best benefits, but if you come in at Class 3 with them, then they will also be most expensive. And you will likely come in at Class 3 with Principle/Standard/Others if you do at Guardian. Which could make them steep on price compared to Assurity.

    But it is all guesswork until you get an informal opinion. I have had way too many surprises in the DI world with occupations that are not the typical job duties for the job title. The last thing you want is to do paperwork, do lab tests, and wait 1-2 months, just to find out they rated you a 3 and it totally throws you for a loop on the premiums.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2016
  8. scagnt83
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    scagnt83 Well-Known Member

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    To give you an example of Job Title vs. Job Duties. I recently had a BOE case for a group of engineers who Guardian nor any other carrier on the market would cover.

    Normally an engineer is a Class 4 or Class 3 with every carrier. But because of their Job Duties, they were a decline with everyone but Lloyds.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2016
  9. Tahoe Ray
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    Tahoe Ray Well-Known Member

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    He's a class 4, Scagnt83. There is no reason for any insurance agent, regardless of their daily activities, to take a policy that relies on a social supplement.

    Even if he was a lower class, DI is not a price based sale as you know. OP needs a plan to cover his income, regardless of other factors.
     
  10. scagnt83
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    scagnt83 Well-Known Member

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    Ive never covered an insurance agent other than myself. So you certainly have more experience with this occupation given your position.

    I am not saying using a SS is the "best" way to go. All I am saying is that I have had multiple white collar clients come back different than usual with Guardian because of "non-standard" job duties. Perhaps I was a bit drastic at first saying to just discount the usual suspects and go with Assurity. But I am always super conservative when setting expectations for a DI policy.
     

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