Full time RVer never home with friends living at permanent residence

[marindependent]

His Landlords or a Condo policy rated as a rental unit would include Liability for the owner of the unit.

Premises Liability likely Yes, Personal Liablitly likely No [but it may be possible]

 

[marindependent]

I wonder how long I would have to stop traveling and physically "reside" there to qualify as such? A week? A month? Several months?

That is a good question and probably open to some interpretation - but its certainly more than never visiting the home.

Lloyd's of London or other type of specialized insurer may be interested in?

Lloyds is going to want to know whom the occupant of the residence is as well.

seems unreasonable to me as someone with the willingness and ability to pay someone for such coverage

It is completely reasonable for an insurer to require you to reside in an owner occupied dwelling that they are insuring as such. A tenant produces a different exposure than an owner occupant.

I'm not physically there which seems to be a requirement for a condo policy.

That is typically the case for an Owner Occupied Unit Owner Condo Policy. You may be able to get it endorsed as Tenant Occupied.

If your agent feels like this whole thing is set up correctly, get their response in writing. Then verify what he/she tells you by reviewing your own insurance policy. I would also pull out ALL of the renewal information that you were mailed.

The occupancy of the property is like the third most important thing that insurance agents/brokers [event LLoyds of London] need to know, right after name and address. It determines which market we take the risk to. Many insurers that write Owner Occupied home insurance policies do not offer Tenant Occupied property policies. When a property goes from being owner occupied to tenant occupied the policy typically either needs to be endorsed or switched to a different carrier. At the very least the insurer is informed.

Any insurance agent worth their salt knows all of this.

There are several wrinkles in your situation in that Unit Owner Condo Policies are strange beasts. Regardless the insurer is going to want to know whom is living there.

Additionally you dont really have an address or live anywhere making even CPLs potentially challenging.

Thoughts @Al3x Lee , @Hawaii Agent , @etc

 

[fed up]

You gave another issue. Florida requires 181 days of residency to declare as your domicile. My parents and Uncles all owned homes in Florida but spent the brutal Summers elsewhere. They did not rent their properties.
Whether you charge fair market value or $.05 per month for rent you are not there and your home is not owner occupied. Your condo policy NEEDS to be a landlord policy and your tenants NEED a rental policy, regardless of who pays the premium. Your current policy will cover you and any guests, it will be a push to get it to cover a tenant.

 

[adjusterjack]

It looks like I still would need an underlying policy to use this excess coverage.

I haven't received a sample of the State Farm Rental Condo Unitowners Policy yet.

But now that we know one exists, you can solve all your coverage issues by contacting a State Farm agent and buying one.

Yes, the occupants should have their own renter's policy for their own protection but, contrary to popular belief, they do little or nothing for a landlord.

 

[Dave1]

I haven't received a sample of the State Farm Rental Condo Unitowners Policy yet.

But now that we know one exists, you can solve all your coverage issues by contacting a State Farm agent and buying one.

Yes, the occupants should have their own renter's policy for their own protection but, contrary to popular belief, they do little or nothing for a landlord.

State Farm isn't writing in Florida, at least in the area where my condo is. When I called them, they said it would have to be Citizens, despite my excluding wind from the policy (the HOA has a master policy that covers hurricanes). They also say Citizens wouldn't write it because of having tenants, even if they are friends contributing below market rents just to cover expenses. It would have to be a landlord policy and that couldn't be written until I canceled my homestead as apparently LL policies cannot be written on a homesteaded property. Another agent I called and told the exact same story to said it isn't a problem so I bought that policy which after talking to all of you and reading the policy myself I think was a mistake as it seems I need a LL policy.

Ultimately, I'm leaning toward selling the place. I wanted to keep my home as a place to keep my stuff and I want someone there watching things while I'm gone which I feel like a lot of people do (probably unaware of the risks) but doesn't seem possible. The issue with selling is the rate I am charging for "rent" is a small fraction of market and I don't want to disappoint these friends of my son as they are going to school and on a budget and I promised them they could stay there for a below market rate. I'm not one to renege on a promise so if I do sell it, I'm going to sign a lease with them with this rate that is not going to be attractive to any investor looking to buy the place and a total no go for anyone wanting to live there but will at least lock them in at the rate I promised.

You gave another issue. Florida requires 181 days of residency to declare as your domicile. My parents and Uncles all owned homes in Florida but spent the brutal Summers elsewhere. They did not rent their properties.
Whether you charge fair market value or $.05 per month for rent you are not there and your home is not owner occupied. Your condo policy NEEDS to be a landlord policy and your tenants NEED a rental policy, regardless of who pays the premium. Your current policy will cover you and any guests, it will be a push to get it to cover a tenant.

I am not looking for a policy to cover the kids living there. I am looking for one that if one of these kids or their parents sue me for some catastrophic event, I want to be covered for me, not for them. Having a kid fall down the stairs drunk and be seriously injured or die obviously has absolutely nothing to do with me but that won't stop the parents from suing. I want to be covered for that exposure, not for whatever injuries or death expenses are associated with their kid.

The domicile question is an interesting one. How much time does one have to spend in a specific state in order to be considered residing there? I know of other travelers who have had problems in high tax states like California. One in particular with residency in a midwestern state (but no home there) took a job as a campground host in CA for 90 days and CA made them a resident without their even applying. As I said, I grew up in FL, have family and friends there and visit frequently. I have no other address aside from this condo. When I sell the condo, am I still a resident of Florida? I think I probably am but there are groups out there like Escapees to make sure I am which is outside the scope of this conversation. I have started looking into them to be sure I maintain residence as I have always relied on having a homesteaded place in the state as indisputable evidence that I am a resident. Funny how in places like Florida, becoming or staying a resident takes some work where in places like California, it is unavoidable without even applying or even having a place to live. It's even worse if you want to leave California (also NY).

It is completely reasonable for an insurer to require you to reside in an owner occupied dwelling that they are insuring as such. A tenant produces a different exposure than an owner occupant.

That is typically the case for an Owner Occupied Unit Owner Condo Policy. You may be able to get it endorsed as Tenant Occupied.

If your agent feels like this whole thing is set up correctly, get their response in writing. Then verify what he/she tells you by reviewing your own insurance policy. I would also pull out ALL of the renewal information that you were mailed.

The occupancy of the property is like the third most important thing that insurance agents/brokers [event LLoyds of London] need to know, right after name and address. It determines which market we take the risk to. Many insurers that write Owner Occupied home insurance policies do not offer Tenant Occupied property policies. When a property goes from being owner occupied to tenant occupied the policy typically either needs to be endorsed or switched to a different carrier. At the very least the insurer is informed.

Any insurance agent worth their salt knows all of this.

There are several wrinkles in your situation in that Unit Owner Condo Policies are strange beasts. Regardless the insurer is going to want to know whom is living there.

Additionally you dont really have an address or live anywhere making even CPLs potentially challenging.

Thoughts @Al3x Lee , @Hawaii Agent , @etc

I just never viewed them as tenants since they are friends of the family and rent barely covers expenses. As I understand it from your previous posts and my own reading of the policy and how the word 'reside' might be defined by the insurer, my not being physically present there for some portion of the year is the biggest problem with the standard condo policy bought, not having someone living there (which just makes things worse). I could have no one living there and it seems I'm still not covered due to a lack of actual physical presence, which I am unwilling to do for any length of time just to meet the requirements of a standard condo policy which would allow me to keep my homestead. I go to places for a reason, like the holidays and special events with family or awe inspiring places of natural beauty. Qualifying for condo insurance isn't on the bucket list.

It's interesting that you mentioned the CPL. I feel like traveling full time is far more risky than having friends living in my condo and getting full time RV insurance took 15 minutes. I am constantly in new places, unsure of exactly how to get to where I am headed (thank you google maps for making this easier "sometimes"), narrow mountain passes towing a vehicle (which they also insure), maniac drivers in cities cutting us off to catch their exits (stopping takes some time), high drivers in weed legal states, roads with snow and ice, leaving the RV in unfamiliar places, such as national forests, while we go exploring, truck stops for overnights with activity all around us all night long. Just last week I was in a hail storm in the mountains of Utah (thankfully no significant damage other than some dents in the hood of our towed vehicle indistinguishable from the existing dings from the last hail storm and rocks that hit it from towing it all the time). I've had the windshield on the towed vehicle replaced twice in two years due to rocks hitting it. I do have an endorsement for "full timing" which is required if you are on the road for more than six months of the year. They couldn't care less about my address other than they need something in their system (friend, relative, mailbox store, etc). The liability coverage is even higher than the condo policy but the premiums are very reasonable for what I perceive as significant risk when compared to this standard condo policy which is fraught with challenges.

Anyway, I am going to talk to the agent tomorrow and barring an email in writing addressing these concerns, I will cancel, inform the county of the property being rented instead of a homestead and start the insurance search over again, this time for a LL policy until I can get rid of the place, which as I was wrote to "adjusterjack" could be a while given the low rent being paid which makes the home unattractive to investors and makes the home completely unsalable to anyone who wants to live in it. No good deed goes unpunished as they say. Thankfully, the stock market has been nicer to me than this little misadventure into the real estate market.

 

[Policy Monkey]

Some advice from a Florida agent:
1. Make sure your condo policy (HO6) includes the "Rented to Others" endorsement. That will usually cover either long or short term tenants, though you want to check the carriers guidelines to confirm.
2. Make sure the "Personal Liability" coverage on your HO6 is maxed-out, typically at $300k.
3. Insist that your tenant carry a renters policy (HO4), also with maxed-out liability coverage.
4. If you still have concerns after that, consider a Personal Umbrella, which can cover from $1M to $5M, provided your other policies meet their underlying limit requirements.

 

[Al3x Lee]

Thoughts @Al3x Lee

I've been summoned..

As one of the country's premier P&C agents, I think the solution is clear. Condo landlord insurance, probably E&S since it's Florida. You need to find an agent who specializes in rentals.

that isn't what I want as I own everything inside. Also, the landlord policy would require me to give up my homestead, which is something I don't want to do as I want to have an address for mail, driver license, auto insurance, etc and the property tax portability should I ever stop traveling. Simply put, I view the place as my house. ~The part I am most concerned about is liability

Okay, then quit treating it like a rental. That's the decision you get to make. It's either a rental or your homestead, it can't be both, and you trying to make it both is overcomplicating the entire situation. That's why you're getting into the weeds in this forum. Your personal contents probably aren't getting insured in this rental..

Also, you might want to research if renting it constitutes commercial usage in Florida. If it does, you'll probably lose your homestead status within 6 months.

As an insurer, I would think it would be far riskier for me to have no one in there with respect to theft, a leaky roof or water heater that goes unnoticed for months or longer or a refrigerator compressor overheating and catching fire.

You're correct, which is why your policy likely has a vacancy provision where your coverage gets severely limited or non-existent after xx number of days of a vacancy. Might want to look that up in your policy. Risk usually goes Owner occupied < Renter occupied < Vacant

Would this still be an issue if I charged them nothing and let them live there for free?

Yes

What do all of these New Yorkers and Canadians who come down to Florida only for the winter do?

Probably have stellar insurance agents that guide them in their specific situations, or they just retain a large portion of their own risk, or maybe they just don't care if the policies are set up correctly. There's a variety of rich people just like any other demographic

I cannot believe that there is no good way to insure a place that is my own homesteaded property if I'm not physically there all the time.

There are ways to insure it, but a homestead and a rental are two different things, you're trying to make them the same.

That seems unreasonable to me as someone with the willingness and ability to pay someone for such coverage for the only piece of real estate I own and consider my home.

How much are you willing to pay? If the insurance companies could show you data that it would cost 5x, or 10x more than you're paying now to have a viable insurance product, would you think it's reasonable then? Also, do they want to deal with trying to figure out if you'll lose your homestead status? Or maybe they already have that figured out and know that you will lose it once it turns into a rental.

The bottom line is it is just a couple of kids going to school living in my place and I don't want the liability associated with their parents suing me if one of them is injured or killed while drunk falling down the steps or something like that which could be millions of dollars.

It's 'just' a couple of kids, but I'm worried about a multi-million dollar lawsuit. It almost sounds like if you were an insurance company and someone approached you with this risk, you would be a little worried yourself.

As for the HOA, the HOA has never asked me for proof of any sort of condo policy and I don't remember signing anything at closing four years ago that said I needed to have it. I would think the title company would have made sure I had it at closing if it was required.

That's a lot of assumptions in one paragraph. Also, do you remember everything you signed at closing 4 years ago from memory? That would be impressive. Get your HOA bylaws, read them, and know what you're supposed to be covering.

Now we know why so many people have these horror stories about insurers not paying for things.

There are horror stories because 99% of people aren't like you and could care less about what's in their policies. We live in the age of "15 minutes could save you 15 % or more", "Name your price tool", "Only pay for what you need". Insurance is now seen as a cheap commodity. It's the image the industry has created for itself. Now you're getting a look behind the curtain.

 

[adjusterjack]

I have provided a sample of State Farms condo owners and rental condo owners policies.

I know that State Farm isn't writing them in Florida but you can compare them side by side to see how a rental condo policy could plug the coverage holes that you are concerned about.

Then you'll know what to look for in your search for a rental condo policy from any other insurance company.

 

[Allen Trent]

Yes. I would undoubtedly go right back to Florida and stay there until I could get another RV. Everything in the unit is mine (furniture, TV, beds, etc), except for any personal items the students have. The students could stay there too without an issue but they may choose to move out instead of living with us "old people". As I said there is no lease agreement or anything so they have no right to stay and I could just return what they paid me for the trouble of having to leave mid-semester. I would be ok with charging them zero but I'm not sure that solves the issue since I'm not physically there which seems to be a requirement for a condo policy. The place increases in value every month so it is worth keeping though I don't know if that will continue in this high interest rate environment.

As far as the homestead application, I could provide every single item listed. The only question is the last one asking for the names of any owners not residing on the property. I think this is targeted toward people with homesteaded homes in other states, not people living in RVs with no other address except the one they are applying for with the homestead. I grew up in Florida. My family lives there and I go back regularly for holidays and special occasions to visit them versus the places I visit in my RV without any reason to ever go back.

People that go into a nursing home still have all their belongings & furniture in a house. However, the courts have clearly defined when a person has vacated (vacant home). So, just because your stuff is there doesn't mean you still reside there or ever intend to return (like snowbirds or military personnel do). You definitely no longer occupy this property as an owner occupied dwelling,meaning the insurance company has no contractual obligation to provide any of the coverages afforded under the policy. You definitely need a landlord condo policy for it. You then also need to get a renters policy for yourself from carrier that offers that to people that live in RVs full time. Definitely ask people in your RV social media groups how they insure their stuff & liability if they are on the road 100%of the time

 

[Al3x Lee]

Also, you might want to research if renting it constitutes commercial usage in Florida.

I have provided a sample of State Farms condo owners and rental condo owners policies.

I know that State Farm isn't writing them in Florida but you can compare them side by side to see how a rental condo policy could plug the coverage holes that you are concerned about.

Then you'll know what to look for in your search for a rental condo policy from any other insurance company.

Didn't have to go very far to see that one has business liability and the other has personal liability. Almost like it's commercial usage to have tenants. Weird.