Transferring annuity proceeds to IRA

[Allen Trent]

I'm not talking about one's total tax situation. I'm only talking about how our products work.

Agree.

But here are some real life scenarios I have seen that got agents in big trouble with their clients.

1. Encouraging someone to do a back door Roth, saying it is a great way to get money in a Roth without paying tax to convert. But agent knew nothing about the IRS pro rata rule that makes you count the values of all IRAs you own, not just the one you converted with after tax contributions

2. Agent tells client they can take their cost basis out of a life policy prior to 1035 exchange to new company. IRS rules consider this is a step transaction that the consumer received "boot" as part of the 1035 & thus client owes taxes on the gains

3. Client bought 300k NQ annuity from agent. Client called in needing $100k temporarily. Agent said as long as he put it back in within 60 days, it wouldn't be taxable. There is no 60 day rule on NQ. Plus, this agent royally screwed this one up as he told the client he would only be taxed on interest since purchased....but client had 1035'd the money at least 2x over the last 20 years & prior carriers didn't even report cost basis & gain to new carrier, so client was taxed on 100k even though he had only earned about 10k since newest annuity purchase.

4. Client with MEC life policy is told they can change ownership or pledge policy as collateral to a bank for a loan. Both scenarios are considered taxable events with a MEC.

5. Agent sold a client an IRA index annuity. Funded it with initial indirect rollover check. Client had another CD IRA come do 6 months later. Agent said he should move that money into the new index annuity IRA. Agent didn't know the IRS only allows 1 indirect rollover per year per taxpayer no matter how many IRAs are owned

While I am comfortable with some agents talking about how products work tax wise, I have found many agents only understand the big picture items like life insurance death benefit is tax free, gains on NQ are taxable, everything taxable on traditional IRA.

 

[Allen Trent]

In fact, I'm reminded of this older article:

FINRA Award Goes to Client After Advisor’s Tax Oversight by Ed Slott.

https://www.oxfordrmg.com/wp-conten...s-to-Client-After-Advisor-s-Tax-Oversight.pdf

Ignore the tax consequences of a client's decisions at one's own professional risk.

Advisors with securities licenses are exposed to alot more than life insurance agents. Partially because of who regulates them, but also because many of them put themselves out to the public as financial advisors.

 

[Tahoe Ray]

In fact, I'm reminded of this older article:

FINRA Award Goes to Client After Advisor’s Tax Oversight by Ed Slott.

https://www.oxfordrmg.com/wp-conten...s-to-Client-After-Advisor-s-Tax-Oversight.pdf

Ignore the tax consequences of a client's decisions at one's own professional risk.

Excellent example.

 

[DHK]

Advisors with securities licenses are exposed to alot more than life insurance agents. Partially because of who regulates them, but also because many of them put themselves out to the public as financial advisors.

There's no such thing as a "financial advisor license." Lots of supplemental educational programs and designation courses (CFP, etc.), but every license is about the products, uses, and regulatory environment.

That complaint could've happened with a life agent too. The difference is usually that FINRA complaints are far more public than insurance agent complaints.

 

[DHK]

Agree.

But here are some real life scenarios I have seen that got agents in big trouble with their clients.

1. Encouraging someone to do a back door Roth, saying it is a great way to get money in a Roth without paying tax to convert. But agent knew nothing about the IRS pro rata rule that makes you count the values of all IRAs you own, not just the one you converted with after tax contributions

2. Agent tells client they can take their cost basis out of a life policy prior to 1035 exchange to new company. IRS rules consider this is a step transaction that the consumer received "boot" as part of the 1035 & thus client owes taxes on the gains

3. Client bought 300k NQ annuity from agent. Client called in needing $100k temporarily. Agent said as long as he put it back in within 60 days, it wouldn't be taxable. There is no 60 day rule on NQ. Plus, this agent royally screwed this one up as he told the client he would only be taxed on interest since purchased....but client had 1035'd the money at least 2x over the last 20 years & prior carriers didn't even report cost basis & gain to new carrier, so client was taxed on 100k even though he had only earned about 10k since newest annuity purchase.

4. Client with MEC life policy is told they can change ownership or pledge policy as collateral to a bank for a loan. Both scenarios are considered taxable events with a MEC.

5. Agent sold a client an IRA index annuity. Funded it with initial indirect rollover check. Client had another CD IRA come do 6 months later. Agent said he should move that money into the new index annuity IRA. Agent didn't know the IRS only allows 1 indirect rollover per year per taxpayer no matter how many IRAs are owned

While I am comfortable with some agents talking about how products work tax wise, I have found many agents only understand the big picture items like life insurance death benefit is tax free, gains on NQ are taxable, everything taxable on traditional IRA.

Agreed. I'd consider these examples are done with more amateur agents who aren't as serious about learning more about the tax code.

They'd do well to subscribe to Van Mueller's newsletter as he goes into a fair amount of detail on tax matters.

 

[LostDollar]

Caveat, not an agent.

My non-agent opinion, I don't think y'all know enough about OP's overall financial situation and financial goals to be giving him much tax advice at this point, note-THIS ANNUITY IS ONLY 10% OF HIS TOTAL RETIREMENT FINANCIAL RESOURCES.

 

[DHK]

Caveat, not an agent.

My non-agent opinion, I don't think y'all know enough about OP's overall financial situation and financial goals to be giving him much tax advice at this point, note-THIS ANNUITY IS ONLY 10% OF HIS TOTAL RETIREMENT FINANCIAL RESOURCES.

You have no license, no training, and no E&O to cover anything you say or claim.

Let the big boys handle this.

 

[Allen Trent]

Caveat, not an agent.

My non-agent opinion, I don't think y'all know enough about OP's overall financial situation and financial goals to be giving him much tax advice at this point, note-THIS ANNUITY IS ONLY 10% OF HIS TOTAL RETIREMENT FINANCIAL RESOURCES.

His net worth doesn't change if a 1099 R will or won't be issued if he cashes out an IRA or Non Qualified annuity.

Sure, it could change his taxable income or tax bracket, but most of the tax suggestions I have seen on this post were merely suggesting he check with CPA to see how he would be impacted based on the little bit of detail he provided.

 

[LostDollar]

His net worth doesn't change if a 1099 R will or won't be issued if he cashes out an IRA or Non Qualified annuity.

Sure, it could change his taxable income or tax bracket, but most of the tax suggestions I have seen on this post were merely suggesting he check with CPA to see how he would be impacted based on the little bit of detail he provided.

I think you and DHK's first posts in the thread, 4 and 6, were the appropriate general responses to OP's question for the information he provided.

Whose interest is the advisor working for -- OP's or Advisor's and Does the income feature of the annuity still meet retirement needs of OP?

I have very definite opinions about what OP should do, based on a combination of personal experience and watching a couple of distant family member situations, and at one point started to make a post, and then stopped because I decided my comments would not be useful after those two posts I cited above.

 

[LostDollar]

Caveat, not an agent.

My non-agent opinion, I don't think y'all know enough about OP's overall financial situation and financial goals to be giving him much tax advice at this point, note-THIS ANNUITY IS ONLY 10% OF HIS TOTAL RETIREMENT FINANCIAL RESOURCES.

You have no license, no training, and no E&O to cover anything you say or claim.

Let the big boys handle this.

It takes no insurance license or E&O insurance for a person to observe, based on OP's initial post that the annuity being discussed is approximately 10% of his retirement assets.

It shouldn't take much more than common sense to suspect that an income tax picture for someone with $3M and a rapidly approaching end of life scenario is going to be far more complex than the considerations for one annuity.

If I had $3M in assets and "the big boys" only wanted to talk to me about taxes on 10% of it, they would not be being "big boys" with my money.

Although I still don't care for one or two of the things he said, this thread really helps me to see why privclientsg has made some of the posts he made about the professionals that he wants to see involved with his clients' financial affairs.