10% Penalty on Annuity

[Julieolo]

This we agree on. Either the agent lied big time on the app, or the client is leaving out or forgetting parts of the situation. I've seen both over the years. The OP already forgot they were given the policy, so no telling what else might have slipped their mind

It's not that I forgot I had the policy, I did not know what was considered the policy or the contract. I really did not know what was what except the application which says it is an application so I new I had that except that there are page numbers missing.

I am not intentionally trying to leave any information out. It is not easy to convey ones
thoughts and meaning in text and things can easily become misunderstood. There are a couple of sections to this story that could get crossed and confused. The reason I keep talking is to try to flush out my story. If I am leaving something out it will eventually show
up in one of my post.

I have so much more to say and want to respond to some of the posts but right now I feel like I need to pull my head out of this, at least for the weekend.

Based SOLELY on the content of this thread, she would be in great hands with nearly anyone on this thread, compared to her impression of her current agent/advisor. Whether it makes sense to make a change... is another matter.

Your right. At least everyone here on this thread appears to like their job or you all would not be here. That is certainty a plus. I have also learned a lot and I would not be making the same mistakes again.

It may not make sense for me to take this money from where it is and put it somewhere else but I have lost faith in the current broker and the relationship is ruined so I would sleep better at night if I made an investment that suits me better.

 

[scagnt83]

Based SOLELY on the content of this thread, she would be in great hands with nearly anyone on this thread, compared to her impression of her current agent/advisor. Whether it makes sense to make a change... is another matter.

I agree. And it certainly wouldnt make sense to change if they keep the policy in force. If they give her the money back, then it could certainly make sense. 9 years is a long time to be locked into a fixed rate in the current rate environment, even if its renewable.

 

[scagnt83]

It's not that I forgot I had the policy, I did not know what was considered the policy or the contract. I really did not know what was what except the application which says it is an application so I new I had that except that there are page numbers missing.

I am not intentionally trying to leave any information out. It is not easy to convey ones
thoughts and meaning in text and things can easily become misunderstood. There are a couple of sections to this story that could get crossed and confused. The reason I keep talking is to try to flush out my story. If I am leaving something out it will eventually show
up in one of my post.

I have so much more to say and want to respond to some of the posts but right now I feel like I need to pull my head out of this, at least for the weekend.

Sorry, I did not mean to put words in your mouth. I certainly was not accusing you of intentionally leaving info out. I always make a point to tell clients "this is your policy, your legal contract with the company".... but many forget what exactly is in their "annuity paperwork" I gave them. Its human nature, and part of what we get paid for is to remind clients what the paperwork is that we gave them! lol.

 

[Julieolo]

I agree. And it certainly wouldnt make sense to change if they keep the policy in force. If they give her the money back, then it could certainly make sense. 9 years is a long time to be locked into a fixed rate in the current rate environment, even if its renewable.

It is a 7 year contract. Even though the graph goes up to 8 years it says the 8 year mark has a 0% surrender charge.

 

[Julieolo]

Sorry, I did not mean to put words in your mouth. I certainly was not accusing you of intentionally leaving info out. I always make a point to tell clients "this is your policy, your legal contract with the company".... but many forget what exactly is in their "annuity paperwork" I gave them. Its human nature, and part of what we get paid for is to remind clients what the paperwork is that we gave them! lol.

No problem. I'm not offended. I'm just trying to explain myself the best I can.

 

[NPCOACH]

Funny, I read most of what LIMRA publishes on annuities and I remember them putting the average age of a Deferred Annuity Buyer in their early 60s, and the median age was mid 60s last I checked. Of course, it all depends on who and how they are polling. But I would love to see the LIMRA study you referenced. Because in my experience, and based on the industry stats I have seen, most NQ Deferred annuities are sold to people over the age of 60.

And your right, I shouldn't argue semantics, especially with someone who makes the statement that "an annuity application is only 3 or 4 pages".... LOL. I let that go and didn't really say anything. But try turning in an app with just those pages filled out... they will tell you "the application is not complete". I will let you argue with them instead.
(and of course that doesnt matter to the OP or consumer or even agent since the State decides what pages are required to be included)

And good luck trying to land Juliolo as a client. I doubt they will trust any insurance agent again. But who knows, maybe you can take her $200k away from the existing guy.

 

[NPCOACH]

Funny, I read most of what LIMRA publishes on annuities and I remember them putting the average age of a Deferred Annuity Buyer in their early 60s, and the median age was mid 60s last I checked. Of course, it all depends on who and how they are polling. But I would love to see the LIMRA study you referenced. Because in my experience, and based on the industry stats I have seen, most NQ Deferred annuities are sold to people over the age of 60.

And your right, I shouldn't argue semantics, especially with someone who makes the statement that "an annuity application is only 3 or 4 pages".... LOL. I let that go and didn't really say anything. But try turning in an app with just those pages filled out... they will tell you "the application is not complete". I will let you argue with them instead.
(and of course that doesnt matter to the OP or consumer or even agent since the State decides what pages are required to be included)

And good luck trying to land Juliolo as a client. I doubt they will trust any insurance agent again. But who knows, maybe you can take her $200k away from the existing guy.

SC, I sent you the web site with the survey info to your box.

It isn't a matter of being cute with "semantics" reread my post. The actual application with most companies is 2 or 3 pages. That is why I put it in quotes. The rest of the paperwork, (which I referenced as another 50 pages) such as disclosure forms, suitability form, replacement forms, bank draft forms etc are required to be submitted, but they are not the application. I thought I explained that clearly.

It is an important distinction because if Julie only asks for a copy of the application, they will only send her those 2 or 3 pages. She needs the rest of the package - the other 47 + pages. If the agent altered anything, or added a signature or two, that is most likely where it would have been done, not in "the application". The application is mostly name, address, beneficiary, amount and annuity product name. The suitability form, replacement form, the various disclosure forms (of which California has many) is where the critical info for Julie's situation will be found. That will be where the misrepresentation will have happened (if it happened at all and was in writing).

I am careful of what I write on public forums. I hope in the future you will be careful in how you read a post on this forum.

 

[VolAgent]

SC, I sent you the web site with the survey info to your box.

It isn't a matter of being cute with "semantics" reread my post. The actual application with most companies is 2 or 3 pages. That is why I put it in quotes. The rest of the paperwork, (which I referenced as another 50 pages) such as disclosure forms, suitability form, replacement forms, bank draft forms etc are required to be submitted, but they are not the application. I thought I explained that clearly.

It is an important distinction because if Julie only asks for a copy of the application, they will only send her those 2 or 3 pages. She needs the rest of the package - the other 47 + pages. If the agent altered anything, or added a signature or two, that is most likely where it would have been done, not in "the application". The application is mostly name, address, beneficiary, amount and annuity product name. The suitability form, replacement form, the various disclosure forms (of which California has many) is where the critical info for Julie's situation will be found. That will be where the misrepresentation will have happened (if it happened at all and was in writing).

I am careful of what I write on public forums. I hope in the future you will be careful in how you read a post on this forum.

I've missed most of the back and forth, but you are right in your assessment. The actually application is quite short. The stack of paperwork comes from all the other forms which may not have to be included in the policy. They are there to ensure the product is suitable and make sure the applicant is aware of various issues, not to actually apply for the product.

 

[scagnt83]

SC, I sent you the web site with the survey info to your box.

It isn't a matter of being cute with "semantics" reread my post. The actual application with most companies is 2 or 3 pages. That is why I put it in quotes. The rest of the paperwork, (which I referenced as another 50 pages) such as disclosure forms, suitability form, replacement forms, bank draft forms etc are required to be submitted, but they are not the application. I thought I explained that clearly.

It is an important distinction because if Julie only asks for a copy of the application, they will only send her those 2 or 3 pages. She needs the rest of the package - the other 47 + pages. If the agent altered anything, or added a signature or two, that is most likely where it would have been done, not in "the application". The application is mostly name, address, beneficiary, amount and annuity product name. The suitability form, replacement form, the various disclosure forms (of which California has many) is where the critical info for Julie's situation will be found. That will be where the misrepresentation will have happened (if it happened at all and was in writing).

I am careful of what I write on public forums. I hope in the future you will be careful in how you read a post on this forum.

I agreed with you originally that "technically" the application portion is just a few pages. Guess you missed that.

But if a consumer asks for the "application they filled out" most carriers are going to send them the entire new business forms, not just the first 3 pages.

I read just fine, you are the one who missed that I wrote you "technically" were correct.

In the future, I will just be careful not to respond to people who want to argue needless semantics. If she asks for the "application she signed" the carrier is most likely not going to just give her the first few pages of new biz paperwork.

 

[scagnt83]

They are there to ensure the product is suitable and make sure the applicant is aware of various issues, not to actually apply for the product.

This is were we get into semantics. No, technically they are not part of the official term/label "application". But they are most certainly required to apply for the product. Without them filled out, the product will not be issued.

Once upon a time, I had a technical glitch and needed the carrier to send me the completed app for my records. I asked for the "signed application", they sent all 30+ pages, not just the technical "application".

The carrier knows what you mean when you ask. I would not expect them to play semantics with a client in this situation. Especially since they seem to show no difficulty so far in this situation.