33 Gun Purchases - No Red Flags

[DHK]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/videos/33-gun-purchases-no-red-flags/vi-AAsWeLj

33 gun purchases.

Look, California is a 'nanny state'. At one point years ago, COLD medicine was determined to be the root for meth, so now it's regulated as to how much you can purchase in a given 30-day period - per your drivers license or state ID. (They scan that into the sale.)

While I can agree there are collector gun and guns for sport, purchasing 33 guns in a year would seem to be excessive. Granted, I do not own firearms. But those who do, would seem to add to their collection in far smaller numbers, right?

Wouldn't a sensible gun control measure be to limit one's ability to purchase firearms to something like 10 or less per calendar year? Just to help postpone a Las Vegas shooting?

I know this is a very far reaching incident and it rarely happens that someone buys firearms LEGALLY and passes the background check... to then commit such a crime against humanity... but I think a certain amount of discretion here can be warranted. A collector would be a collector for a long-time, not a 1-year hoarder (I would think), and exercise discretion in what they buy, right? Or if someone inherited someone's gun collection, an exception could be made, pending a background check on the legal transfer of ownership, right?

Any thoughts? Any reason why that would be wrong/unconstitutional?

(Obviously we're not talking about buying firearms on the black market. All these sales were legal.)

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OR... just like with financial reporting transactions of CTRs and SARs, a report is 'flagged' when an individual has purchased more than 'x' amount of firearms in a given year? You don't stop the sale, but an alert is triggered to authorities?

 

[nylife11023]

If the power-elite who run this country... and the NRA is surely part of that small club... with members of the financial industry, big oil, and big pharma, ... don't believe that you as a financial advisor should be forced to work in the best interests of your client via a fiduciary regulation, I can't see anything in the way of any gun control regulation becoming law in this country.

If there is no penalty to selling 30 annuities to a 95 year old woman in a year's time, why should there be one about selling 30 firearms in the same period?

Of course, I would support what you propose, but that will not happen until the current generation of legislators dies off and ones coming up who remember Sandy Hook and Columbine and now Vegas... and who actually about it... come to power.

There are people out there who believe that the NRA is a hate group, as well as a terrorist organization. I disagree with it, but honestly, when you hear some of the wild things that conservatives believe in, the NRA being an organization of sociopaths, it's not that big a stretch for liberals.

 

[leevena]

To begin with, I do not own any guns, nor do I know the laws about purchasing firearms. That said, I just do not see how your proposal would stop a mass murder, nor how banning firearms outright. What I found interesting about this situation was the large number of firearms he brought into the hotel room. I assume that he could have brought the single firearm in question, with a large supply of ammo, and accomplished the same thing.

Another thing to consider was the fact that this guy had a car that appears to be a large car bomb. It is possible that just as many, or more could have died via a car bomb, or some other method. Since there were mass murders prior to the invention of the gun, and there have been many mass murders without a gun, how would banning guns stop this type of behavior?

 

[DHK]

If the power-elite who run this country... and the NRA is surely part of that small club... with members of the financial industry, big oil, and big pharma, ... don't believe that you as a financial advisor should be forced to work in the best interests of your client via a fiduciary regulation, I can't see anything in the way of any gun control regulation becoming law in this country.

My only objection to the DOL ruling is beneath the rhetoric and into the application and enforcement of it.

If there is no penalty to selling 30 annuities to a 95 year old woman in a year's time, why should there be one about selling 30 firearms in the same period?

Show me the annuity with an approved age past age 90? Here's one for up to age 90 - a SPIA:
https://img.anicoweb.com/wps/portal/img/home/annuities/immediateannuity/palladiumsinglepremium

The FIAs I like have an approved age to age 80.
https://img.anicoweb.com/wps/portal/img/home/annuities/indexedannuity/anicostrategyplus7

Some FIAs have an age limit of age 65 - generally if they're more technical to understand. Local state department of insurance places their approval of products that they allow to be sold. Sometimes the states will require more consumer-friendly or protected restrictions on the same product.

Of course, I would support what you propose, but that will not happen until the current generation of legislators dies off and ones coming up who remember Sandy Hook and Columbine and now Vegas... and who actually about it... come to power.

There are people out there who believe that the NRA is a hate group, as well as a terrorist organization. I disagree with it, but honestly, when you hear some of the wild things that conservatives believe in, the NRA being an organization of sociopaths, it's not that big a stretch for liberals.

However, in regards to the NRA, this is one step and probably for something that most people in the GOP won't oppose:
NRA Open to New Rules on Rapid-Fire Gun Accessories After Vegas

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To begin with, I do not own any guns, nor do I know the laws about purchasing firearms. That said, I just do not see how your proposal would stop a mass murder, nor how banning firearms outright. What I found interesting about this situation was the large number of firearms he brought into the hotel room. I assume that he could have brought the single firearm in question, with a large supply of ammo, and accomplished the same thing.

Another thing to consider was the fact that this guy had a car that appears to be a large car bomb. It is possible that just as many, or more could have died via a car bomb, or some other method. Since there were mass murders prior to the invention of the gun, and there have been many mass murders without a gun, how would banning guns stop this type of behavior?

A determined person won't be stopped - just find a different method, I agree.

But when there's one indicator that COULD have been a 'red flag', it's worth looking into.

 

[leevena]

My only objection to the DOL ruling is beneath the rhetoric and into the application and enforcement of it.




Show me the annuity with an approved age past age 90? Here's one for up to age 90 - a SPIA:
https://img.anicoweb.com/wps/portal/img/home/annuities/immediateannuity/palladiumsinglepremium

The FIAs I like have an approved age to age 80.
https://img.anicoweb.com/wps/portal/img/home/annuities/indexedannuity/anicostrategyplus7

Some FIAs have an age limit of age 65 - generally if they're more technical to understand. Local state department of insurance places their approval of products that they allow to be sold. Sometimes the states will require more consumer-friendly or protected restrictions on the same product.



However, in regards to the NRA, this is one step and probably for something that most people in the GOP won't oppose:
NRA Open to New Rules on Rapid-Fire Gun Accessories After Vegas

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A determined person won't be stopped - just find a different method, I agree.

But when there's one indicator that COULD have been a 'red flag', it's worth looking into.

Careful about that slippery slope, what is that indicator? If I legally buy many guns there is no reason to suspect I am planning something illegal, yet I am now being investigated. But what if that indicator is "words or statements" say in social media. Seems like this could get ugly very quickly.

 

[DHK]

It very much could, I agree. And that's a moral dilemma of a limited government.

Yet, we also have similar restrictions on cash transactions. You say things and deal with cash around $10k... and similar reports are filed - either a CTR (Currency Transaction Report) or an SAR (Suspicious Activity Report). And that deals with money laundering and drug trafficking.

Now, is this effective? Maybe. I haven't researched it and I really don't want to right now, but it's there. I'm just saying that similar reporting *can* be a good idea.

 

[scagnt83]

Careful about that slippery slope, what is that indicator? If I legally buy many guns there is no reason to suspect I am planning something illegal, yet I am now being investigated. But what if that indicator is "words or statements" say in social media. Seems like this could get ugly very quickly.

The Feds already use words or statements in social media as indicators of potential attacks. There are computer programs that scan social media for indicator words or phrases and then flag those posts for human review by Federal Agencies.


And DHK has a good point about the financial transactions. We all learn in AML training to look out for multiple transactions that are just under the $10k limit... because that has been found as an indicator of laundering.


I have a client who is a wealthy gun collector. Claims to have around 80 different firearms of all sizes and ages. It took him 30 years to collect that many guns...

This guy bought over 30 guns just in the past year... totaling at least $40k.

And all on the same type of gun. That is a HUGE red flag!!

Gun collectors might have 3-5 of the same thing... but not 30 of the same gun.... especially within the same year.


You do have a point about only needing 1 or 2 if someone wants to do harm. But you cant rapid fire a gun for too long for many different reasons. Someone buying lots of bumpstocks, along with lots of guns, is a huge sign that they plan to fire thousands of rounds without stopping. jmo

 

[WinoBlues]

I own a few guns. And more ammo than I would need to shoot a deer, If I wanted to shoot a deer.

What number makes me a terror suspect? How much ammo am I allowed to own, Who gets to decide?

I also own four computers that all have internet access where I can learn to make all kinds of WMDs from stuff I can pick up at HomeDepot. Who should be able to monitor and control my internet access? And who picks that guy?

Do I want my neighbor kid to own an M2 mounted in his truck? Or do I want Orwell's Big Brother? No to both, however, incidents like Las Vegas tends to bring out the knee-jerk in us.

I also own a number of box cutters.

 

[scagnt83]

I own a few guns. And more ammo than I would need to shoot a deer, If I wanted to shoot a deer.

What number makes me a terror suspect? How much ammo am I allowed to own, Who gets to decide?

Same here. Ive known how to shoot since the 3rd grade and certainly would not "give up" the guns I have. (and here in SC I can buy a lot cooler guns than you guys out in CA... LOL)

But I think you would agree that 30+ ARs in 12 months by someone who is not a dealer looks pretty dang suspicious.

Who gets to decide if your monetary transactions look suspicious?
Who gets to decide if your driving looks suspicious for DUI?

Law enforcement officers do. Experts within our government do.

Most LEOs understand the gun world fairly well. And understand what looks suspicious and what doesnt. They are often collectors themselves... they know what is normal behavior for a collector and what isnt imo.

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I also own four computers that all have internet access where I can learn to make all kinds of WMDs from stuff I can pick up at HomeDepot. Who should be able to monitor and control my internet access? And who picks that guy?

Who? LEOs already do.

NSA/CIA/XYZ/ZYX , they all have software that scans social media and the entire internet for suspicious posts/views/etc. If something gets flagged then a human reviews it and reviews the person that did it. Whats the criteria? They dont say so the bad guys cant circumvent it. George W signed that bill.

But just because something gets flagged doesnt mean your phone is going to ring or the FBI raid your house. I guarantee you plenty of posts on this forum have been flagged for review. Probably even this one. (Hi NSA!)

And before someone bashes all this... these programs have stopped numerous attempted attacks in this country and others. Tens of thousands of lives saved... is that worth them being able to see your facebook posts if they get flagged for an innocent word or phrase?

If the Feds think I might be a terrorist, they are welcome to give me a call to straighten out the misunderstanding. Id think most reasonable law abiding citizens feel the same way.

But you make a good point that lines need to be set at some point. The current obliqueness does not exactly give me the warm and fuzzies all the time. But neither does the opposite.

 

[WinoBlues]

Same here. Ive known how to shoot since the 3rd grade and certainly would not "give up" the guns I have. (and here in SC I can buy a lot cooler guns than you guys out in CA... LOL)
.....................

Wow, now you are just being hurtful.

Yeah, but but we have no gun violence because of it.