Question on Long Term Care

[Mr_Ed]

Our income will come from social security, pension, 401K, & 403B.

Wife's 401k with $400k, my 403B $200,000, no social security for me, pension of 100, 000 for me.

So if ltc partnership kicks in my assessts up to whatever I pay would be protected. Our income would be my pension and whatever withdrawals we would need from our retirement accounts.

I am thinking that my wife's 401K and my 403B would be protected. I am assuming that my pension would be reduced to $2500 a month that I could keep.

Is that not right

That is incorrect.


You can only keep about $60 per month of your income for personal needs (e.g. haircut, cigarettes, etc...)

If your wife has no income in her name (which doesn't sound likely), then she could keep $2,841 per month from your income.

If your wife has $1,000 of monthly income in her name, then she could keep $1,841 of your monthly income.

If your wife has $2,000 of monthly income in her name, then she could keep $841 of your monthly income.

If your wife has $2,841 or more of monthly income in her name, then she can't keep any of your income. In that case, all of your income, except about $60, would go directly to the nursing home (assuming the cost of the nursing home was greater than your actual income.)

This is called the Minimum Monthly Maintenance Needs Allowance.

I typically would not recommend a california partnership policy to someone who has or will have a six-figure household income at retirement.

 

[csalter]

That is incorrect.


You can only keep about $60 per month of your income for personal needs (e.g. haircut, cigarettes, etc...)

If your wife has no income in her name (which doesn't sound likely), then she could keep $2,841 per month from your income.

If your wife has $1,000 of monthly income in her name, then she could keep $1,841 of your monthly income.

If your wife has $2,000 of monthly income in her name, then she could keep $841 of your monthly income.


So you're telling me that this is the same everywhere in the country? California's partnership plan is not different from any other state's?


If your wife has $2,841 or more of monthly income in her name, then she can't keep any of your income. In that case, all of your income, except about $60, would go directly to the nursing home (assuming the cost of the nursing home was greater than your actual income.)

This is called the Minimum Monthly Maintenance Needs Allowance.

I typically would not recommend a california partnership policy to someone who has or will have a six-figure household income at retirement.

Is this the same for everywhere in the country? California's partnership is not any different?

If this is true then I am concerned with the agent. If this is true then I am concerned with the agent. I was told that my wife would be able to keep her salary, but mine would go to Medi-Cal except for $2000 or so. I was also told my home would be exempt, and that I would be able to protect my assets dollar for dollar. was told that my wife would be able to keep her salary, but mine would go to Medi-Cal except for $2000 or so. I was also told my home would be exempt, and that I would be able to protect my assets dollar for dollar.

 

[Mr_Ed]

Is this the same for everywhere in the country? California's partnership is not any different?

If this is true then I am concerned with the agent. If this is true then I am concerned with the agent. I was told that my wife would be able to keep her salary, but mine would go to Medi-Cal except for $2000 or so. I was also told my home would be exempt, and that I would be able to protect my assets dollar for dollar. was told that my wife would be able to keep her salary, but mine would go to Medi-Cal except for $2000 or so. I was also told my home would be exempt, and that I would be able to protect my assets dollar for dollar.

The agent who told you that you could keep $2,000 per month of your income is misinformed.

Nowhere in the country can someone qualify for Medicaid (Medi-Cal in California) and keep $2,000 per month in income.

The only way your wife could keep $2,000 of your monthly income is if her monthly income was $841.

The California Partnership program does not protect income. It only protects assets.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The California Partnership for Long-Term Care "basic brochure" states:


"You can apply to Medi-Cal for assistance
to help pay the cost of your continued care
and not have to spend all of your hard earned
savings down to the poverty level. Each dollar
your Partnership policy pays in benefits
protects a dollar of your assets from Medi-
Cal's "spend down" rules. You may have to
apply most of your income toward the cost
of your care before Medi-Cal will pay, but
the assets you protected by purchasing a
Partnership policy remain yours - for you,
your spouse, or to leave to your loved ones."


your income is not protected.

by "most" they mean all of your income except for about $60 per month

UNLESS your spouse's monthly income is less than $2,841, then he/she can keep enough of your income to bring him/her up to the monthly minimum.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Actually the amount of monthly income you can keep, if you're in a nursing home, is only $35.

That's on page 12 of "Before You Buy".

 

[csalter]

So based upon this information, my wife would only be able to survive on her 401K and my 403B, correct?

I did not plan on her getting $2000 each month. I just thought that I would be able to have it.

I just need to know that my 403 B and her 401K would be protected. I hope I never have to get to that point.

If this is the way it is, then when one goes outside the partnership are there better opportunities that are as cost effective? I know about Mutual of Omaha. Should I consider other ltc insurance companies with strong ratings that could provide similar pricing?

Do you know when Genworth has last increased its partnership ltc policies? I cannot find them. Do you know where to look?


Are there some ltc companies you could recommend?

 

[Mr_Ed]

You should have been given a copy of "Before You Buy".
It is a 13 page brochure that explains how the California Partnership works and what happens to your income and assets when you apply for Medi-Cal.

Here is a link to the brochure:

http://www.dhcs.ca.gov/services/ltc/Documents/CPLTC%20Print%20Locks/BYB2012.pdf


Pages 11 and 12 are what is pertinent to our discussion here:

The $2,000 that you can keep is $2,000 of assets (NOT income.)

(Appendix B, Page 11).


Appendix C, Page 12 states:

If you're in a nursing home, you can only keep $35 per month of your income.

If you're receiving care at home, you can keep no more than $600.

You can't stay in a Residential Care Facility because Medi-Cal won't pay for one.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

So based upon this information, my wife would only be able to survive on her 401K and my 403B, correct?

I did not plan on her getting $2000 each month. I just thought that I would be able to have it.

I just need to know that my 403 B and her 401K would be protected. I hope I never have to get to that point.

If this is the way it is, then when one goes outside the partnership are there better opportunities that are as cost effective? I know about Mutual of Omaha. Should I consider other ltc insurance companies with strong ratings that could provide similar pricing?

Do you know when Genworth has last increased its partnership ltc policies? I cannot find them. Do you know where to look?


Are there some ltc companies you could recommend?

So based upon this information, my wife would only be able to survive on her 401K and my 403B, correct?

She could keep her income. If her income is less than $2,841 per month, then she could keep some of yours to bring her up to $2,841 per month.


I did not plan on her getting $2000 each month. I just thought that I would be able to have it.

No. If you apply for Medi-Cal all of your income (except for $35 per month) will go to the nursing home.



I just need to know that my 403 B and her 401K would be protected. I hope I never have to get to that point.

Your assets will be protected in an amount that is equal to whatever the Partnership policy paid out in benefits plus the extra $2,000.


If this is the way it is, then when one goes outside the partnership are there better opportunities that are as cost effective?

Since the CA Partnership does not protect your income, you may be better off buying a non-partnership policy that has a "co-insure" approach and that is unlikely to run out of benefits. This would give you more choices for your care.



I know about Mutual of Omaha. Should I consider other ltc insurance companies with strong ratings that could provide similar pricing?

Do you know when Genworth has last increased its partnership ltc policies? I cannot find them. Do you know where to look?


Are there some ltc companies you could recommend?


You need to speak with an LTCi specialist in your area and not just one who sells just one company's policy.

 

[CALTCAgent]

I think Mr_Ed explained things very well.

I would speak with a LTC specialist.

 

[Arthur Rudnick]

Is this the same for everywhere in the country? California's partnership is not any different?

Medicaid is a federal/state/county program, administered by each state. So yes, every state has different rules & regulations.

But, what you're being told is pretty accurate: Once on Medicaid, the beneficiary can keep no more than approximately $2,000 in assets. That's true for most states, although here in NY it's $13,800.

Here's the deal:Medicaid is in terrible shape today and will only continue to get worse as years go by. No one has any idea what the rules & regs will look like 10, 20 or 30 years down the road.

Is a Partnership policy an option for you? Yes it is, but you seem to be focusing only on the partnership.

IMO, with your income (now & later) and with your assets, a non-partnership policy may very well be a better option.

At 52 & 38, you could most likely purchase a traditional, non-partnership policy with either a 5-year or lifetime benefit period with a premium that you'd be comfortable with.

I'm not sure why your agent is only focusing on the CA partnership when in my opinion, at your ages, income and assets, you have better options with a traditional policy.

Genworth & Mutual of Omaha are excellent choices and if you're looking at Mutual, take a look at their Assured Solutions Gold policy, which offers up to 50% of your monthly benefit in cash, to do with what you want. Also, look at a Shared Care policy, with 8-10 years of shared benefits.

If your agent doesn't represent either company, as previously stated, look for another agent.

 

[Mr_Ed]

Medicaid is a federal/state/county program, administered by each state. So yes, every state has different rules & regulations.

But, what you're being told is pretty accurate: Once on Medicaid, the beneficiary can keep no more than approximately $2,000 in assets. That's true for most states, although here in NY it's $13,800.

Here's the deal:Medicaid is in terrible shape today and will only continue to get worse as years go by. No one has any idea what the rules & regs will look like 10, 20 or 30 years down the road.

Is a Partnership policy an option for you? Yes it is, but you seem to be focusing only on the partnership.

IMO, with your income (now & later) and with your assets, a non-partnership policy may very well be a better option.

At 52 & 38, you could most likely purchase a traditional, non-partnership policy with either a 5-year or lifetime benefit period with a premium that you'd be comfortable with.

I'm not sure why your agent is only focusing on the CA partnership when in my opinion, at your ages, income and assets, you have better options with a traditional policy.

Genworth & Mutual of Omaha are excellent choices and if you're looking at Mutual, take a look at their Assured Solutions Gold policy, which offers up to 50% of your monthly benefit in cash, to do with what you want. Also, look at a Shared Care policy, with 8-10 years of shared benefits.

If your agent doesn't represent either company, as previously stated, look for another agent.

Genworth doesn't have a shared care policy in California.
And the United of Omaha policy has a 33% cash benefit.

Like NY, California has policies that are completely different than every other state.

 

[Arthur Rudnick]

Genworth doesn't have a shared care policy in California.
And the United of Omaha policy has a 33% cash benefit.

I stand corrected................

 

[2insureyou]

I could not agree more with what Arthur said about Partnership. It is the most oversold, most misunderstood provision of ltc insurance. Asset protection and income protection are two totally different things. Based on the facts you have presented, there is no way I would recommend a partnership plan.

And hey, if you're open to a higher premium with a more financially strong company, there's always Northwestern Mutual (okay, I'll duck the flames from all the non-NM reps here) :-)