So, what Does Everyone Think About Genworth's 180?

[Arthur Rudnick]

originally posted by Mr_Ed

S&P states that an insurer rated "A" (Strong) has strong financial security characteristics that outweigh any vulnerabilities, and is highly likely to have the ability to meet financial commitments. Insurers rated "A" (Strong), "BBB" (Good), or "BB" (Marginal) have strong, good, or marginal financial security characteristics, respectively. The "A", "BBB" and "BB" ranges are the third-, fourth- and fifth-highest of nine financial strength rating ranges assigned by S&P, which range from "AAA" to "R." A plus (+) or minus (-) shows relative standing in a rating category. These suffixes are not added to ratings in the "AAA" category or to ratings below the "CCC" category. Accordingly, the "A+", "A-", "BBB+", "BB+" and "BB-" ratings are the fifth-, seventh-, eigth-, eleventh- and thirteenth-highest of S&P's 21 ratings categories.

I'll be sure to tell my Genworth prospects that. I'm sure it will put their minds at ease. Or, I could just tell them due to Genworth's financial performance, they were downgraded this week?

originally posted by ltcadviser

So, what is the over under on the number of rate increases I should expect on my Genworth 10 Pay within the next 6 years? 2 1/2?

My guess is 1 1/2. However, since it's a 10-pay, the increase will most likely be a higher % than if it was a life-pay.

 

[ned55]

Genworth Financial (long-term counterparty credit and senior unsecured debt ratings): BB+
Genworth Life Insurance Company BBB+

While Standard and Poor's rating of BBB+ for the Life Insurance unit may still be considered amongst the lower rungs of Investment Grade, Standard and Poor's BB+ rating for Genworth Financial is not considered investment grade.

 

[Mr_Ed]

Genworth Financial (long-term counterparty credit and senior unsecured debt ratings): BB+
Genworth Life Insurance Company BBB+

While Standard and Poor's rating of BBB+ for the Life Insurance unit may still be considered amongst the lower rungs of Investment Grade, Standard and Poor's BB+ rating for Genworth Financial is not considered investment grade.

Neither you nor scagent seem to understand the difference between a bondholder and a policyholder.

 

[scagnt83]

Why do you post inaccurate information that is so easily disputed?
If you're going to make a post, it takes about 2 minutes to google the correct information before making a fool of yourself.

S&P's rating for Genworth Life Insurance Company is BBB+

www.genworthltc.info

Try keeping up with industry news. Genworth has not updated their website. It happened yesterday. S&P just downgraded them to BB+ with a Negative Outlook.

Genworth responds to ratings downgrade but shares fall further | Fox Business

You talk about "facts" but you seem to be short on them...

 

[Mr_Ed]

Try keeping up with industry news. Genworth has not updated their website. It happened yesterday. S&P just downgraded them to BB+ with a Negative Outlook.

Genworth responds to ratings downgrade but shares fall further | Fox Business

You talk about "facts" but you seem to be short on them...

S&P's rating for Genworth Life Ins. Co.'s claims paying ability is BBB+

It was updated yesterday also.

(refer to the link I shared before you'll see that it was updated yesterday)

Neither you nor ned seem to understand the difference between a bondholder and a policyholder.


I would think that an insurance agent would at least know the difference between "unsecured debt ratings" and "claims-paying ability ratings."

This is basic stuff here... we're not talking about high finance.

I guess I was wrong before to ask you to google the answer since google will only help you find the right answer if you first understand the question.

Go back to school and learn the difference between a stockholder and a policyholder. Then learn the difference between a holding company and an insurance company. Then maybe you might begin to understand the difference between "unsecured debt ratings" and "claims paying ability" ratings.

If you were a consumer, I could understand you not knowing something as basic as this. But, you're in this business. You hold yourself out as a "knowledgeable insurance professional and financial advisor".

How many of your clients know that you don't know the difference between "claims paying ability ratings" and "unsecured debt ratings"?

 

[scagnt83]

S&P's rating for Genworth Life Ins. Co.'s claims paying ability is BBB+

It was updated yesterday also.

(refer to the link I shared before you'll see that it was updated yesterday)

Neither you nor ned seem to understand the difference between a bondholder and a policyholder.


I would think that an insurance agent would at least know the difference between "unsecured debt ratings" and "claims-paying ability ratings."

This is basic stuff here... we're not talking about high finance.

I guess I was wrong before to ask you to google the answer since google will only help you find the right answer if you first understand the question.

Go back to school and learn the difference between a stockholder and a policyholder. Then learn the difference between a holding company and an insurance company. Then maybe you might begin to understand the difference between "unsecured debt ratings" and "claims paying ability" ratings.

If you were a consumer, I could understand you not knowing something as basic as this. But, you're in this business. You hold yourself out as a "knowledgeable insurance professional and financial advisor".

How many of your clients know that you don't know the difference between "claims paying ability ratings" and "unsecured debt ratings"?

As I explained earlier, lower Bond ratings mean higher operating expenses. Which is not in the best interest of policyholders.

I never said the rating decrease was on the claims paying ability. But you act like the unsecured debt rating has no effect on the future of Genworth's LTCI business.

 

[Mr_Ed]

As I explained earlier, lower Bond ratings mean higher operating expenses. Which is not in the best interest of policyholders.

I never said the rating decrease was on the claims paying ability. But you act like the unsecured debt rating has no effect on the future of Genworth's LTCI business.

so then you admit now that I was not wrong that Genworth's S&P rating IS BBB+.

even though before you posted:


"Try keeping up with industry news. Genworth has not updated their website. It happened yesterday. S&P just downgraded them to BB+ with a Negative Outlook.

Genworth responds to ratings downgrade but shares fall further | Fox Business

You talk about "facts" but you seem to be short on them..."



So, before you thought I was not factual in stating that S&P's rating is BBB+, but now you say you knew it all along.

If you knew it all along, then why did you "correct" me.

You can thank me later for teaching you the difference between unsecured debt ratings and claims paying ability ratings.

fyi... any agent who tells a consumer who either has or who is considering buying a Genworth insurance policy that Genworth's S&P rating is "junk" or that their S&P rating is BB+, is guilty of misrepresentation (e.g. is lying.)

 

[ned55]

Neither you nor scagent seem to understand the difference between a bondholder and a policyholder.

Umm... I was just commenting on the latest Standard and Poors ratings action on Genworth. Nothing more, nothing less.

Yes, I know the difference between a bond investor and a policyholder. It was quite well represented from the reports following the earnings call, and Genworth's response, that Genworth's Long Term Care Insurance brought down the parent company. The agency ratings of the parent company matter. The Insurance division also had it's ratings lowered. It matters that the parent company has to take capital and plunk it down for reserves to stabilize long term care insurance. It matters that Genworth lost more than 35% of its market cap in 3 days because of long term care insurance. Genworth will possibly/probably need to allocate capital to reserves in the future.

Mr. Ed, since you lead us to believe that you know more than others about the difference between counterparties and customers, please enlighten all for what the latest S&P Ratings actions mean to lenders, counterparties and the policyholders, not to mention Genworth's ability to borrow, trade, and to be financially stable in the future. Genworth states they are seeking premium increases for long term care insurance. Premiums are rising on new policies. The financial strength of the insurer is sinking. Perhaps there is some good news which one can share regarding policyholders, that is missing from the recent press releases and ratings actions.

 

[scagnt83]

so then you admit now that I was not wrong that Genworth's S&P rating IS BBB+.

even though before you posted:


"Try keeping up with industry news. Genworth has not updated their website. It happened yesterday. S&P just downgraded them to BB+ with a Negative Outlook.

Genworth responds to ratings downgrade but shares fall further | Fox Business

You talk about "facts" but you seem to be short on them..."



So, before you thought I was not factual in stating that S&P's rating is BBB+, but now you say you knew it all along.

If you knew it all along, then why did you "correct" me.

You can thank me later for teaching you the difference between unsecured debt ratings and claims paying ability ratings.

fyi... any agent who tells a consumer who either has or who is considering buying a Genworth insurance policy that Genworth's S&P rating is "junk" or that their S&P rating is BB+, is guilty of misrepresentation (e.g. is lying.)

I never looked at your link. I had no need to. Plenty of companies post debt ratings on their websites under the investor info page.

What I did wrong was assume that you would not try to twist the argument away from the facts at hand. I had assumed someone as up to date as you would have been aware of the ratings decrease I spoke of and would have known I was not talking about claims paying ratings. I also assumed that someone as smart as you would have realized from the context clues which ratings I was talking about (since I mentioned issuing new debt in the same statement)....

As usual, when you are faced with facts you try to twist peoples words to make yourself seem right.

 

[Mr_Ed]

Umm... I was just commenting on the latest Standard and Poors ratings action on Genworth. Nothing more, nothing less.

Yes, I know the difference between a bond investor and a policyholder. It was quite well represented from the reports following the earnings call, and Genworth's response, that Genworth's Long Term Care Insurance brought down the parent company. The agency ratings of the parent company matter. The Insurance division also had it's ratings lowered. It matters that the parent company has to take capital and plunk it down for reserves to stabilize long term care insurance. It matters that Genworth lost more than 35% of its market cap in 3 days because of long term care insurance. Genworth will possibly/probably need to allocate capital to reserves in the future.

Mr. Ed, since you lead us to believe that you know more than others about the difference between counterparties and customers, please enlighten all for what the latest S&P Ratings actions mean to lenders, counterparties and the policyholders, not to mention Genworth's ability to borrow, trade, and to be financially stable in the future. Genworth states they are seeking premium increases for long term care insurance. Premiums are rising on new policies. The financial strength of the insurer is sinking. Perhaps there is some good news which one can share regarding policyholders, that is missing from the recent press releases and ratings actions.

OK, Mr. Ned, I guess I'm ignorant of what matters.

I never thought that stock price was of any concern.

Yet, it seems to be a very big concern, especially based upon this last post you made.

Can you explain to me and the rest of the readers of this forum why the drop in stock price by 35% is bad for someone who owns a gnw LTCi policy?

Thank you.