Dateline Undercover on right now

I base my opinions on research - not left wing shills trying to make headlines to sell papers. Give me more credit than that. I've have done what I consider extremely extensive research on annuities in an effort to decide whether or not to sell them at one point. After my research I chose to pass.
 
I base my opinions on research - not left wing shills trying to make headlines to sell papers. Give me more credit than that. I've have done what I consider extremely extensive research on annuities in an effort to decide whether or not to sell them at one point. After my research I chose to pass.

And that must have been some great research. Was it the same research that told you index annuities had M&E expenses, management fees including fund expenses (post #30 on this thread)?

Oh, then there's this statement,

"If you think you know what you're doing that's even worse. That means your dangerous due to total commitment and a lack of will to step back and realize that you're not formally trained on all financial tools. Therefore, the only time you should be in a senior's home is to visit grandma."(post #45 on this thread).

So should we assume the same about you. Because God knows you think you know all there is to know about health insurance. How is it that you know anyone's training?

I liked this one too:

"If an insurance agent is going to sit down with a senior and compare an annuity to a CD, where did their formal training on CDs come from?"(post #65).

Yep, CD's are some seriously complicated investment vehicles. Let's see, if you put your money in this 1 year CD, your interest rate is 3.10% with a yield of 3.15%. If you take it out before the end of the 12 month period, you'll be charged 3 months worth of interest. Wow! It would take years for someone to figure out the complexity of that.

Yet another beauty:

" However, the FACT stands that annuity agents receive no formal training on other investment tools.(post #76).

Fact, huh? So please show me a list of every agent that has ever sold an annuity and also provide a list of credentials. If you can do that, and it shows that NONE have received formal training (which you have yet to define), then we can accept your statement as FACT.

I'm growing tired of your narrow mindedness and your contradictions. It's just too easy at this point. How about you keep your ill informed opinions to yourself as it pertains to things you know nothing about?

Somehow I don't believe you are capable of that.
 
Well no kidding....gee a dealership that gives their salespeople the cars they sell. Now that is an argument. Wonder why the Pontiac dealer didn't go down the road and rent Fords? One of the perks of selling cars is that you get to drive them home. The main reason for you getting a demo to drive is about marketing, not to prove the worthiness of the cars. Many sales guru's will tell you to own what you sell but it isn't about proving the worthiness of the product.

Why do you keep bringing up large commissions. Like you, I too sell health insurance and it isn't exactly a shabby commission. Assurant can be up to what....25% depending on production. If you are working for someone you may not get the 25%. So a family health plan in my area averages about $500 a month times 12 is $6,000 which equals a $1,500 commission. Plus renewals (which aren't that great) but it is still a renewal. Believe me there are many politicians that want that "large" commission on health sales to disappear. Large is an opinion and is subjective to the individuals emotion.

You keep trying to use the Revelation of Truth tactic for your position. The trouble is that are all working in the industry, aren't going to support false conclusions.

Actually, that's exactly the case. When I sold Pontiacs we all drove new Pontiac demos. The first thing I got when I went to sell Beemers was a Beemer demo to drive - every senior sales rep owned one. But the dealership owner didn't want any of his sales people driving around in anything but a Beemer.

Obviously there are situations where a rep cannot own the product. Annuities are not one of those situations. Justify it all you want....large commissions often require justification.
 
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Actually, completely different. When selling health the goal is to get the lowest premium in order to get the sale. The higher the premium the less likely you are to get the client. So if you're commission hungry and try to whack your clients with $800 premiums you'll find yourself looking for another field.

With annuities the goal is the opposite. It's to get the senior to transfer as much money as possible so the commissions are more. Where's the ethical barrier?

Say a senior has $500,000 to play with. The problem with annuity sales is there's huge financial incentive to get the senior to move most of, if not all of that money.

A very good annuity agent would really have to be grounded financially and ethically to say:

"Actually, you should still be diversified and only put "X" amount into an annuity." But more often then not it's not what we see...is it.

A senior says "Ok, I have $62,000 in CDs. How much should I move?" The answer? ALL OF IT!!!

So while health insurance agent's goal is to keep premiums affordable, the goal of unethical annuity agents to to roll the whole enchilada. If an unethical commission-hungry health agent wants to make a run at hitting people high - he'll be losing a lot of sales - whereas unethical annuity agents are richly rewarded for "rolling it all."

The way the annuity commission structure is set up invites unethical behavior. You can't pull it off with perm life - trying selling the average a $1,000/mo perm life policy.
 
Wow ...you DO make blanket statements. Are you an undercover "dateline" man?

Is this your personal crusade of some sort?

In defense of the ethical agents out there, I had to step in. Many agents are careful when moving money into an annuity. Suitability is the key word...and nobody locks up ALL their money into a long term commitment..even the 403-B, 401-K, etc. An exception might be for the insane.

As for product knowledge...this industry is getting more complex with new changes occurring all the time, that's why we have CE courses. Again, the professional spends the time to really learn the product before he presents it.

So are you saying you don't respect your fellow associates if they sell annuities? Especially if to a "sacred cow senior"? Because from your tone i get that impression.
 
Ok - I'll bite. You're at a senior's home and their entire nest egg is in a CD earning 3% - $150,000 (aside from pension/401 and social security)

Your recommendation would be for what type of allocation of that money? All into an annuity? Half? A quarter? And would be the determining factors behind your recommendation?
 
I think John just has a stereo type in his mind of life insurance agents being on their last dollar and NEEDING the commission from the next sale to pay rent and eat.

My opinion is: ANY person on commission who is living paycheck to paycheck OR lives way beyond his means puts pressure on himself to CLOSE deals and go for the easiest sale focusing on his needs, not the clients. This is true for ANY type of sales and it is the way MOST of the public views all of us who are on commission.

The key to success for ANY commissioned person or business owner is to live well below your income. Have a huge safety net. I can assure you that I don't WANT to go a week without selling something but I can go 2-years or more without a sale before I would have to start selling things off. That puts me in a position where I don't have any pressure to make sales out of desperation.

We all know salespeople at both ends of the spectrum in life-insurance, health-insurance, annuities, financial advisors, car salesmen, attorneys (yes if an attorney is self-employed he needs to make sales), and all other salespeople.

I believe John's problem is he thinks of life insurance agents as mainly desperate for their next buck and he can't get around that. (I tend to think of financial advisors that way but consciously I really know only 85% of them are broke and desperate.)

John, never confuse formal schooling with a good education. Anyone can do a good job or a bad one with any product. It doesn't matter what credentials you have. It matters what you choose to do, what you know, and what outside pressures influence you.
 
That's not the case. My problem with the annuity biz is where's the line? I'd like someone to take on my example of a senior - say 65 years old, $150K in a 3% CD and how they would determine what portion (if not all) of that CD would go in an annuity.

My issue, again, is there's a huge financial reward to move all of it. That reward does not exist in any other type of "month payment" based insurance sales where you simply cannot get average people to pay more than "X" amount a month for any product.

Again, this is not the case with annuities.

So educate me - please. I'm asking. 150K in a CD @ 3% - what would be the factors involved in determining what percentage - if any - should go into an annuity.
 
Actually, completely different. When selling health the goal is to get the lowest premium in order to get the sale. The higher the premium the less likely you are to get the client. So if you're commission hungry and try to whack your clients with $800 premiums you'll find yourself looking for another field.

I would hope the goal is to find the appropriate major medical coverage, regardless of premium, for that particular client.

With annuities the goal is the opposite. It's to get the senior to transfer as much money as possible so the commissions are more. Where's the ethical barrier?

Having sold annuities in my investment days (yes I was trained and had all securities licenses), the goal is to determine whether or not an annuity fits into the overall financial picture of the client taking into account assets, future goals, other investments (including savings and CDs). Sometimes it makes sense, sometimes it does not.

Say a senior has $500,000 to play with. The problem with annuity sales is there's huge financial incentive to get the senior to move most of, if not all of that money.

A very good annuity agent would really have to be grounded financially and ethically to say:

"Actually, you should still be diversified and only put "X" amount into an annuity." But more often then not it's not what we see...is it.

Of course you can find rogue agents that do this. Allianz has been sued over this before. That certainly should not be an indictment of ALL agents doing financial services. I mean seriously, do all health insurance agents sell stripped down optional rider stuff like you used to???

A senior says "Ok, I have $62,000 in CDs. How much should I move?" The answer? ALL OF IT!!!

Again, this is your opinion, not necessarily the truth. Most agents/reps selling annuities have huge liability for inappropriate recommendations and take great care to ensure that the product has a good and appropriate fit for the client. You can always find a bad apple, but that does not mean it is an across-the-board method.

So while health insurance agent's goal is to keep premiums affordable,


NO! The health agent's goal is to find appropriate major medical coverage for the client. The secondary goal could be finding appropriate major medical at the lowest possible premium, but that is not the primary consideration. If it were, your suggestion would mean that every health insurance agent sell only the Basic/Right/Start/Active plans since those will have the lowest premium point.

the goal of unethical annuity agents to to roll the whole enchilada. If an unethical commission-hungry health agent wants to make a run at hitting people high - he'll be losing a lot of sales - whereas unethical annuity agents are richly rewarded for "rolling it all."

There are unethical agents in every field, but you seem to want to apply it to all agents. Unethical agents "rolling it all" will eventually be caught, fined, lose their license and probably end up selling cars. BTW, I'd rather go in and recommend a health insurance premium that is higher than yours if the coverage fit is more appropriate for that client.

The way the annuity commission structure is set up invites unethical behavior. You can't pull it off with perm life - trying selling the average a $1,000/mo perm life policy.
 
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