My Internet Leads Experience

[Bob Klee]

Internet leads are dead. Leave all of your web to me.

Pangaea,

Hmm, sorry they didn't work for you dude...but don't tell that to the investors in BankRate.com or AllWebLeads....Easily $300-$400 Million in Internet Lead revenues between those two companies.

We have couple thousand satisfied agents ourselves...guess I better tell them to quit selling insurance to the internet leads they buy & find a better source for new clients..NOT

Seriously dude, without internet leads, I know many agents that would not be in business. But, they are not for everyone, are they?

 

[Daytona_Guy]

Internet leads are dead.

Too diluted, I've found. Best to generate them internally for exclusive opportunities.



.

 

[joe92275]

Another key to internet leads is to cut the retail out of the equation and go right to the publishers. It took about a year but I finally found a few good publishers who sell their data to companies like ASAP, Prospect match etc. What used to be $8.00 a name now costs me $1.90.

Finally I think I have won.

 

[Mark from WI]

yeah, they bought out insuranceleads....but who uses all web anyways? if you've been in the game for long enough you know not to purchase leads that are being re-sold by affiliates...a lot of people are doing their own research on these companies....after the first 100 people used them and came back with the same responses, why do people continue to "give it a shot"?

A lot of times it's not the fault of the original lead vendor. A lot of times there are people who jump in and buy leads and resell indiscriminately without the lead originator's knowledge, and without regard to the number of times they resell the lead. I know some of the leaders at All Web, and they exert best effort to provide a good product.

I'm not an employee of, or consultant to, All Web Leads, but I have bought from them in the past and I respect their efforts to make the industry a little better overall. Recently, they have partnered with a couple of companies to help combat fraud:
All Web Leads Announces Significant Changes to Lead Distribution Rules - Insurance Leads - AllWebLeads.com
CPA Detective and All Web Leads Partner to Transform Insurance Lead Industry - Yahoo! News

I'm not saying they are perfect, or any leads company is perfect, but I think these kinds of efforts should be applauded. Hopefully they will be replicated.

If you buy leads of any kind, I've launched a survey and am blogging about the results. Here is the survey. Here are some articles about early results. I will close the survey when we hit 300 completed surveys, right now we're at about 175-180. Feel free to fill out a survey if you buy leads and have an opinion... just takes a few minutes and the more surveys we get, the more reliable the results will be.

 

[moonlightandmargaritas]

I know some of the leaders at All Web, and they exert best effort to provide a good product.

I'm sure they do, but there's always this pesky dilemma; do we strive for a quality product, or do we strive for only additional revenue? Many times they are mutually exclusive. There have been so many abuses in the past, many producers are understandably suspicious.

I'm not an employee of, or consultant to, All Web Leads, but I have bought from them in the past and I respect their efforts to make the industry a little better overall. Recently, they have partnered with a couple of companies to help combat fraud...I'm not saying they are perfect, or any leads company is perfect, but I think these kinds of efforts should be applauded.

Mark, there's a very wide chasm between outrage/efforts/press releases...and actual practices. I believe that lead providers abuses have been so egregious in the past, that any prudent customer would do well to make them prove it -- before believing it. Applause? Hasn't been earned yet.

 

[Mark from WI]

I'm sure they do, but there's always this pesky dilemma; do we strive for a quality product, or do we strive for only additional revenue? Many times they are mutually exclusive. There have been so many abuses in the past, many producers are understandably suspicious.
Mark, there's a very wide chasm between outrage/efforts/press releases...and actual practices. I believe that lead providers abuses have been so egregious in the past, that any prudent customer would do well to make them prove it -- before believing it. Applause? Hasn't been earned yet.

M and M, I agree with everything you say.
I hope that AWL's recent efforts- and I know them enough to know they are EFFORTS not just a show- are the beginning of an industry-wide realization that leads NEED TO IMPROVE.
The results of my survey are not good, but there is some light at the end of the tunnel and some inventive solutions like LeadiD.com ... but IN NO WAY does this mean there is not a lot companies will still need to prove. I'm looking for 300 completed surveys then will close the survey and publish the results.
A final reminder- sometimes oversold leads are not the fault of the vendor. In fact this is USUALLY not the case among reputable vendors who are generating a large percentage of their own leads. The number of "legs" each lead has is counted and is closely monitored. Where it falls apart a lot of times are the after-market lead brokers who call large-volume buyers and buy their worked leads 1) without knowing or caring how many times they were shared the first time and 2) without caring or tracking how many times more they sell them to 3) other companies who may again re-sell again without asking, knowing or caring. There is a "dont ask, dont tell" quality to the after-market that destroys the quality for everyone including not only the original unauthorized "reseller" (who gets what he deserves, and gives up the nurturing tail on those leads he sells) but also all the poor souls who shared those first authorized legs from the original vendor.
In my opinion, it's the after-marketers who have to take a good part of the blame for the overselling brokers are reporting- which of course is a big part of a lead's quality. Any agent who resells the leads they buy "to recoup some of their original lead spend" (thereby *usually* breaking their contract with their lead vendor) shares also in the blame.
Lots of blame to go around. I think agents should definitely proceed with caution and ASK more questions. I for one would be a lot more confident buying from a vendor who is trying to improve things than somebody who is (as you suggest) focused SOLELY on maximizing profit. Those who buy and indiscriminately resell are the ones who are padding their pockets by sucking the value out of the leads - and out of the pockets of the other agents who legitimately bought those leads, and out of the reputations of the originating leads companies who are trying their best to manage quality.
Just my take.
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Question from an ethical stand point, how can vendors knowing keep the money for the sale of the known bad lead to the remaining 2 agents? You knowingly are selling something that is not what you state it is??

I have used leads for over 3 years and can count on two hands how many times I have gotten a request from a lead vendor to stop calling a lead because the lead was fake and so pissed they called the vendor directly to request the calls stop.

You make a really good point here.

 

[ninetythree]

Well, I've given Hometown Quotes over a week to respond and they failed to do so. I left a message for Bob Klee, and gotten no response, and I've tried calling their number several times and have even sent them emails.

The last time I looked at my account, I had a balance of $60 and had two or three leads I was waiting to get credit for.

I've been locked out of my account and have stopped receiving leads. I don't appreciate this.

If they didn't want to do business with me anymore, I wish they would at least have given me my money back. They just cut me off.

I want my money back!!!

***update***

Just got an email from them. Said they'd take care of it. Thanks!


**** update 2 ************

Well, it looks like I'm an a**hole! Bob's company never charged me the initial $100 fee (which I could have sworn I paid) so I went through my bank statements and there's no evidence I paid the initial fee. So they don't owe me any money!

Since people have already seen this, I wanted to apologize instead of deleting my post. I should apologize for demanding my money back, especially since Hometown doesn't owe me any.

On the other hand, if someone would have returned my calls or responded to my emails, I could have been told that. In fact, I should have been feeling stupid a week ago! I sent two emails on May 19th and another on May 24th.

Bob left me a message asking me to delete the post since I he didn't owe me any money. I'll call him later, I just wanted to post this ASAP since I was wrong to post he owed me money when he didn't and this site gets a lot of hits.

I'm a little embarrassed.

 

[Bob Klee]

So Mark from WI,

Is the reason you know AWL so well because you are selling their data as Aged Leads?

Also: LeadiD.com. Good for them to come up with an idea but it is not cheap. They "give" their code to the vendor like Hometown Quotes or AWL for "free" to add to our leads. But the catch is. If we want to use the data to verify leads we get to buy it back......Great idea...for LeadiD.com. It only will work if the big buyers of data enforce it IMHO. If they do, LeadiD.com will be the next big IPO on Wall Street and lead prices will go up....but "maybe" the quality will also. Guaranteed someone will find a way to strip the data away & call it a fresh lead:(

AWL is an "early adopter" of this technology so I suspect they get to go along for the ride. BankRate.com was not sold on it when I talked to them at LeadsCon a couple months ago. We will see what happens but for now, I'll sit on the side & watch.

Full Disclosure: I do not buy or sell leads to AWL.

I was on a conference call with the largest carrier's marketing folks earlier today. They Hate aged leads & "re-freshed" leads. Why you might ask? Because it hurts their agents retention and they can prove it with almost 24 months worth of data. They measure the Quality of MY leads by this retention data as well as claims data, close ratio's, etc.

So I'll say it again. Hometown Quotes does not sell their data to anyone to re-sell as aged. Nor do we re-fresh leads. It is like stealing from our agents that paid for the fresh lead.

What you do is your business....but IMHO, it is both bad for the Consumer as they didn't sign up to be beat up over & over by different agents 6-12-18-24 months after they entered their data online. Plus it steals from the agents that paid retail by lowering their retention [6-12-18 month data the carrier has]. They compare the new business generated by leads to the other sources the agents uses. Great data. Case closed in my book on why aged leads are bad for the consumer & agents.

Quality Data + Quality Agents = Good Business for everyone
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Well, I've given Hometown Quotes over a week to respond and they failed to do so. I left a message for Bob Klee, and gotten no response, and I've tried calling their number several times and have even sent them emails.

The last time I looked at my account, I had a balance of $60 and had two or three leads I was waiting to get credit for.

I've been locked out of my account and have stopped receiving leads. I don't appreciate this.

If they didn't want to do business with me anymore, I wish they would at least have given me my money back. They just cut me off.

I want my money back!!!

I just left Rich a message....there is much more to this than is written here but I will not at this time...say more. Rich, please call me back.

Hey Rich, Thank You! We should have communicated with you better about your account....Communication...sure helps in so many ways.

It was good to talk to you. Looking forward to seeing what we can do to help you in the future.
Bob

 

[Mark from WI]

So Mark from WI,

Is the reason you know AWL so well because you are selling their data as Aged Leads?

Bob

No, Bob. AWL once had an aged leads business- leadsclearance- when they bought InsuranceLeads.com, but they shut that down. I do not believe they sell leads directly to aged leads companies currently, as it sounds like you don't. The point is, their leads ARE sold in the after-market as I explained. Your leads are probably also sold in the after-market, without your knowledge. That was my point.
I have worked with them and I do know their officers.
Yes, I am right now helping an aged leads company with business development and quality control. Those two things are not related.
I choose who to work with based on my beliefs at the time. We voice those same beliefs in our statements on the forum. It's reasonable that our stated opinions align therefore with who we do business with. People's opinions are not ALWAYS spouted solely out of a burning desire to make money by stating them, Bob. Are you not so keen on AWL because, maybe, you compete with them? Whatever. So let's talk about the issue.

Hometown Quotes does not sell their data to anyone to re-sell as aged.

Well, Bob, this is my point. YOU personally do not sell your data to anyone to re-sell as aged. However, some of your larger volume customers get approached by people who wish to buy, and then re-sell your leads. This happens to all lead vendors, and it happens to you.

Is LeadiD (a company I also have ZERO financial interest in) going to make money if people adopt their technology? Sure! But I'm guessing there would also arise competition at that point, and they will need to charge a fair price or be replaced. Would their ID be stripped by smart techies? Maybe- they sure ripped the copy-protection on CDs and DVDs, haha.
But on the other hand, a couple of the people I have heard about who re-buy and re-sell leads wouldn't know how to add three columns in a spreadsheet.

Overall, does the effort have merit regardless? I believe it does.

You can't blame a company for trying to fix their own quality - and this also helps their customers.

If you have a better idea, it would be interesting to hear it! The problem needs to be fixed- for the entire industry. Once that tree of shares and re-shares starts branching out, management becomes very difficult for the original organic gardener. You can't prune what you can't see, and what you don't know about. Saying "we dont sell to aged leads companies" may be commendable, I guess, but it misses the point. And really - selling some leads directly to the right aged leads company who contractually agrees to manage your original shared-count might sometimes be better than selling to an agency who (unbeknownst to you) makes it a regular practice of re-selling to a ridiculously indiscriminate leads broker with 20 ready buyers.

Right now it's pretty early, but as I found in my recent Leads Quality Survey I launched for my consultancy (sponsored by Next Wave), SOMETHING needs to happen. Agents are fed up with leads quality, and it does not seem right now that any leads company is entirely immune.

Bob, I have stated in other threads that I have heard good things about your leads. It's obvious you care about quality, and you care about your customers. Return policy and individual customer care go a LONG way. Kudos.

 

[ninetythree]

Is there a way to track the IP addresses of those putting leads into these websites? I'm sure in a very short period of time you'll notice that some IP addresses will start to reappear. From that point, you could, through civil action, perhaps even a criminal complaint, start to track these people down.

This lead situation is fraudulent and it could be a crime. Bob/Mark - Have you lead guys considered legal action?