Putting Kids on Insurance or Not

[Insurance-Guy]

I'm almost positive that the policy says if there is a significant change to the risk you have a responsibility to notify the company.

Where in the policy?

I don't understand what you are getting at? No I am not required to diary a person that has a 12 yr old and remember to add them at 16. Whatever state you are in must be much different then where I am... The application clearly states on it that you have disclosed all operators. The policy renewals ask if there are any changes and to review coverages, they also many time mention about new discounts too. The companies have DMV databases pulled to find additional drivers so when little Johnnie jr gets a DL he gets added. I really don't have this problem all that often. I did have my own cousin that went for about 6 months without adding their son and to be honest it slipped by me and as soon as I thought about it I called them and guess what they had just got a letter from Allstate telling them that their son had to be added since he had a license. I agree with you a policy that has been on the books for years and years could have a young operator that gets by and the company would pay the claim. If the company felt like fighting it they could based on the fact the young operator was not rated on the policy. But more than likely they will pay claim and move on. I do know from my dealings VA is much stricter and they can and often will deny claims if operators are in the household but not rated on the policy.

 

[joshb]

I'm almost positive that the policy says if there is a significant change to the risk you have a responsibility to notify the company.

Where in the policy?

Page 17 of 20 of my Nationwide Mutual Fire Policy. I am copying it word for word:

"The Policyholder has a duty to notify us as soon as possible of any change which may affect the premium or the risk under the policy. This includes, but is not limited to:
1)...(not important to this topic)
2) drivers;
3)use of the insured vehicles
4)...(not important to this topic)
5)Ownership

 

[Air Jer]

I am not quoting any one companies policy. I am referring to the ISO PAP (personal auto policy). ISO (Insurance Services Organization) is an organization that makes rate filings with all of the state insurance departments for all lines except work comp and they make policy form filings with all of the state insurance departments.

Most insurance companies choose to use ISO forms as they are already filed and accepted with the various state insurance departments. In many cases they have stood the test of time and have been tried in court so everyone knows what to expect. Even in those rare instances where an insurance company chooses not to follow ISO on a given form, if you read their coverage, there are only minor cosmetic changes from the ISO form.

I am not sure why I keep posting on this issue and I will now just let folks go on their merry ways in bliss. I have been accused of trying to pull a fast one on the insurance companies and not once have I advocated this; I am not trying to swindle the insurance companies.

All I have said is when posters say the insurance policy won't provide coverage I am saying yes it does. There is no need to discuss this any further - just go and read the insurance policy because that is what determines coverage.
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The Policyholder has a duty to notify us as soon as possible of any change which may affect the premium or the risk under the policy. This includes, but is not limited to:
1)...(not important to this topic)
2) drivers;
3)use of the insured vehicles
4)...(not important to this topic)
5)Ownership

Then what? Does the policy say what happens if they don't? How does what you quote affect who is defined as a driver in the very same policy?

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The application clearly states on it that you have disclosed all operators.

Is your application a warranty application?

 

[Insurance-Guy]

I am not saying in anyway you are trying to pull a fast one. But as the above poster showed the policy does state that it is your responsiblility to add the operator n

However I agree with you the policy covers basically any driver except for an excluded driver. So no the operator doesn't have to be listed to be covered but you are splitting hairs...it is different when you let someone who would not usually operate your car drive it and expect there to be coverage. However it is different when little johnie gets his drivers license and you dont tell the company to try to save a few bucks.

By the way the OP was insured with Geico so as an agent I would say if an agents advice is needed or wanted get an agent.

 

[joshb]

The Policyholder has a duty to notify us as soon as possible of any change which may affect the premium or the risk under the policy. This includes, but is not limited to:
1)...(not important to this topic)
2) drivers;
3)use of the insured vehicles
4)...(not important to this topic)
5)Ownership

Then what? Does the policy say what happens if they don't? How does what you quote affect who is defined as a driver in the very same policy?

You asked where in the policy so I told you. Then what? (I assume you are asking what happens if you don't) I don't know I didn't write the policy. Although common sense would tell me you run the risk of having your claim denied. What would you tell your customer if he asked?

The definition of the driver (I assume you mean insured) does not change by the quote above. Why would it? No one is arguing who is considered an insured or not, so I'm not sure why you keep arguing that point. We all know (or should know) who the insured(s) is/are. That is not the point. The point is you have a duty to notify the company if the risk has changed. A 16 year old driver getting a license and driving a vehicle is a significant change in risk. Therefore, it is your duty to notify the company. If you choose not to you will be running the risk of having your claim denied. I do not know how the company will handle each individual claim because I am not in the claims dept. I am an agent.

 

[Air Jer]

The definition of the driver (I assume you mean insured)

No, actually the named insured and who is permitted to drive a family's car are 2 different things.
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You asked where in the policy so I told you. Then what? (I assume you are asking what happens if you don't) I don't know I didn't write the policy. Although common sense would tell me you run the risk of having your claim denied. What would you tell your customer if he asked?


When reading insurance policies, you have to read the whole contract. I know you didn't write the policy which is why you should read it. After you get through reading the part you just read, then what does the policy say if they don't?
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No one is arguing who is considered an insured or not, so I'm not sure why you keep arguing that point.

First, I am not arguing, choose to believe what you want and I'm fine with it. Second, not once have I said anything about the insured. I have been referring to who is allowed to drive the vehicles of the insured. Posters say policy states minors are not covered if they aren't listed but this is not what the policy says. Read the part about who is a driver and you will see no mention of age.
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However I agree with you the policy covers basically any driver except for an excluded driver. So no the operator doesn't have to be listed to be covered but you are splitting hairs

At last, agreement on who is covered when they drive a car. Splitting hairs?
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it is different when you let someone who would not usually operate your car drive it and expect there to be coverage. However it is different when little johnie gets his drivers license and you dont tell the company to try to save a few bucks.

From a coverage standpoint, why is it different? Do you think an insurance company would deny the claim as I don't. It's not ethical to knowingly to with hold vital information like this from an insurance company but it does not affect coverage. It's not ethical for an insurance agent to knowingly and willingly to withhold vital information from the company they represent but that does not affect coverage. However, with that said, if this is a pattern for the agent in question, then you will see the insurance company take serious steps to deal with their agent but this would not deny little Johnnie and his family from coverage.

I'm tired and I am going to bed. I've enjoyed the discussion. Not enough time is devoted to technical coverage issues here at the forum from which we all could benefit. Good night and good luck!

 

[Insurance-Guy]

I never get any sleep I have a one and a three year old.

Ok I see where you are going with this. Most policies cover permissive use. I give you permission to drive my car coverage goes with the car. If one of my kids get in my car and hit something it is covered under my policy. The problem is if it is thought to be fraud. The OP wanted to know about removing a young driver to save money. I don't know or care about Geico but most companies at this point will require a named driver exclusion.

Not going to keep beating a dead horse here. I also have enjoyed this topic.

 

[joshb]

The definition of the driver (I assume you mean insured)

No, actually the named insured and who is permitted to drive a family's car are 2 different things.
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You asked where in the policy so I told you. Then what? (I assume you are asking what happens if you don't) I don't know I didn't write the policy. Although common sense would tell me you run the risk of having your claim denied. What would you tell your customer if he asked?


When reading insurance policies, you have to read the whole contract. I know you didn't write the policy which is why you should read it. After you get through reading the part you just read, then what does the policy say if they don't?
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No one is arguing who is considered an insured or not, so I'm not sure why you keep arguing that point.

First, I am not arguing, choose to believe what you want and I'm fine with it. Second, not once have I said anything about the insured. I have been referring to who is allowed to drive the vehicles of the insured. Posters say policy states minors are not covered if they aren't listed but this is not what the policy says. Read the part about who is a driver and you will see no mention of age.

The policy I have been referring to does not define driver anywhere in the policy, but does define insured. The policy doesn't say what will happen if you don't. It moves on to the next bullet point. Again I do not know the intention because I didn't write it, but I would assume that not honoring the contract would run you the risk of having a claim denied. Your very first post on this topic mentions what the policy states about the insured.

You are correct just because someone is not listed on the policy does not mean they will not be covered and I understand that. But your policy also says you have a duty to notify the company if you have a significant change in the risk. I have seen claims paid in this situation, but I have also seen a claim denied because of it. We all know there are insurers that will do whatever they can to get off a risk and not pay the claim. If this came up with one of the carriers, I guarantee they are going to consider denying the claim.

By the way I want to clear something up. I have not said the carrier WILL deny coverage or provide coverage, I am just stating the fact that the insured is running a risk for not disclosing this significant change, to the insurer.

 

[LGilmore]

Air Jer, I think you can't see the forest for the trees bud.

Do you think for one second a mulitbillion dollar company has not gone through the wording of their policies by their legal department? If you can't find it in one spot, look elsewhere.

Covering a 10 year old who puts the car in drive and crashes through the neighbor's fence is one thing, a unlicesned or licensed not insured 16 year old on a joyride accident is another. In the 10 year old case, he is covered as an unlicensed driver simply because the state of residence does not offer a license.

In the 16 year old's case, the option for license is there. You either have to add or exclude a person of age who could license.

 

[Air Jer]

LGILMORE where are you reading this at in the insurance policy? I'm not real interested in people's opinions. I am not offering an opinion, I am reading the insurance policy. To LGILMORE, you get the very last word as this is my last post as I am moving on.
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Do you think for one second a mulitbillion dollar company has not gone through the wording of their policies by their legal department?

LGILMORE, are you a P & C agent and have you ever heard of ISO?