Got Hit Today, Not Sure how to Handle, Please Help!

[Accelerated]

Hey, so the adjuster came back saying the damage tommy caris like 780, less than my deductible. I spoke with 3 body shops and they all said 1000 minimum in damage.

First, the "spread" that you have given is pretty typical between the adjuster and some random body shops. The difference that I see here is that the adjuster probably has a line item detail estimate, with each and every portion of the repair process itemized and accounted for, while in your words, the body shops are simply throwing bulk bids, possibly arbitrary bids, at you. A professional should be able to quote you to the penny and justify every penny when they do so. You may wish to keep that in mind.

All that said, it is a really simple process, and yet again, you are making it more complicated than it needs to be. If the body shops and the adjuster are not in agreement, the adjuster simply makes a trip to the body shop and they sort it out. It does not involve you at that point (provided the carrier has accepted liability for the loss, and they really are good at streamlining the process.

I also received a letter from the other guys insurance saying that they have "been trying to contact me". they have my phone number and I have talked to them, any idea why I would get this letter? And how should I proceed with the claim being that the adjusters price is so low? And because I'm puttin the claim against the other guy, should I wait to do/ fix anything until fault is determined?

1. Letters are standard, and they typically get mailed out before they even call you. This simply starts the countdown on the file. Just call them back and make sure they have what they need from you.

2. If you think the adjuster price is low, you had better be prepared to defend your assertion with more than some arbitrary numbers tossed at you by random shops without a formal line item detail estimate of repairs. If you can show exactly how and where the estimate is low, or what it is missing, you are good to go, but simply tossing arbitrary numbers about will get you nowhere.

3. Here we are, a couple of weeks later, with no police report, and pretty much your word against his. At fault is going to be a difficult thing to determine, and based on the information that you provided, you will likely be held responsible for a sizable percentage of the incident, which may make this whole thing not worthwhile for you.

If the other guy is found at fault, I plan to go after him for the additional devaluation of my car, to do that, do I press his insurance for that, or do I have to take him to small claims court? If it is small claims court I will likely go for treble damages plus court and attorney fees. There is precedent for his, although most people don't know about it or do it just because of all the time it takes, but I can't afford to lose the value of the car, especially since I was getting ready to trade it in, and was barely going to be able afford my new truck. This loss will put it out of reach.
Thanks in advance

First, "devaluation" because of a minor dent and scuffed paint that was repaired? If you had structural damage to the vehicle, and they had to pull the frame or something along those lines, this would be legit, but as it stands now, you are reaching pretty far. Minor cosmetic damages that have been repaired typically have little to zero affect on the value of the vehicle.

As far as "treble damages" goes, you typically have to establish intent, and further, this typically only applies to bodily injury claims or unfair/deceptive business practices (I could be wrong, but I have encountered this type of thing in the past, and feel quite comfortable with that assertion). Unless your neck suddenly hurts too, you are likely barking up the wrong tree, and even if it does, you would very likely have to prove that the other driver hit you on purpose.

At this point, please think about how the one's who are going to potentially write a check for damages perceive you, and keep in mind that this is based on your presentation here on the forums:
1. You are extremely excited about a minor loss (not abnormal, but not helpful either).

2. You are now babbling about demanding treble the value of the damage, which, while the value of the damages has been determined by an adjuster (who is generally required to justify every penny of the cost of repair via a line item detail estimate), you have increased the value of damages by 25% with random arbitrary numbers (a thousand plus, minimum, as you put it).

3. You have yet to realize that regardless of the cost of the repairs, third party claims are paid out on an ACV (Actual Cash Value) basis. This means that whatever the value your loss is ultimately determined to be, even if the other driver is determined to be 100% at fault (which is a stretch, since they were not cited by authorities at the time of loss), and the other driver's carrier accepts 100% liability for the loss (again, it's a stretch), you will still only be paid ACV on the value of the damage. What this means to you is that they will determine the value of the loss, and then depreciate the loss based on age, anticipated use life and possibly condition (most adjusters stay away from basing anything on condition though). An example would be if you had a 5 year old vehicle that has a 10 year anticipated use life, you would be looking at a check for 50% of the value of whatever repairs needed to be made. This is a "nutshelled" example, as different pieces and parts have different anticipated use life.


In short, none of this is helping you. Talk to the carriers and the adjusters and find out what exactly needs to be done to determine fault to their satisfaction. As it stands, you are coming off as someone who wants a lot more than might, maybe, be due, and is babbling about litigation to get it (especially when combined with your other thread). This does not make people want to help you.



A couple of things about your state:

The monetary limit in small claims court is $7000 plus court costs, with three exceptions:
1. If a claim falls under Chapter 93A , and involves unfair or deceptive business practices, double or treble ("triple") damages may be awarded for a total of up to $21,000 ($7,000 x triple damages).
2. In certain landlord/tenant cases, double or treble damages may be awarded (again, for a total of up to $6,000).
3. Automobile accident cases (i.e. cases involving property damage caused by a motor vehicle) are an exception and have no monetary limit. Personal injury cases caused by automobile accidents, however, must either meet the $7,000 limit or be filed in formal civil court.

Note that "treble damages" is not mentioned with regards to auto accident cases.

The clerk-magistrate can decide to award the plaintiff less than this amount if he believes some of it to be frivolous, but he cannot award more than what the plaintiff asked for. If a plaintiff thinks he is eligible for double or treble damages, he should indicate this on the "description of claim" part of the claim form (but should fill the "claim amount" box with the $7,000 or less that was originally owed before the doubling or tripling of damages).
It is also worth keeping in mind that a plaintiff can only recover the fair market value for damaged or missing property. This is not the replacement value (i.e. how much the item would cost to replace at today's prices), but rather is the amount the item was worth when it was damaged or lost (an amount that is likely the original price of the item, less depreciation).

Here is a decent reference link:
Small Claims Procedure | Small Claims Advisory Service

 

[Jdavidson015]

To take care of the claim, take your car to a body shop, preferably one recommended by the insurance company. They will further inspect the car, if its over $780, they will have the adjuster come back and look at it again and they can do a supplement for the amount over your deductible. If you want to file with the other carrier, you should have done that already. If you haven't done this, do it today. Waiting does not help your case. Or maybe you have filed, not clear from above.

I'm not sure what state you are in so going after diminished value changes a lot from one state to the next. In general terms, the car is not significantly damaged and doesn't affect any real value (I'm basing this on a $1000 repair bill). Its hard for me to see how there is any real diminished value.


The letter. The other driver called his insurance company and filed a claim. They almost always send the letter and then pick up the phone and call. It sounds like you have talked with them but I would call back and confirm they have what they need. If you have filed the claim, you can ask them about the status of getting your car repaired and in essence, see if they have done a fault determination yet.

Good luck.

Dan

What would be the basis for treble damages? I'm not an attorney, but I believe this normally requires a willful act. I can't see how this falls into that category, or else every minor fender bender would be in court for this.

Dan

It was his willful act to accelerate without looking, which is also very negligent. And should therefore be acceptable to go for treble damages. As far as the diminished value, I have spoken with Kelley blue book about this issue, and "ANY collision involving a vehicle can diminish the value of said vehicle by as much as 25%" I will have to go to a few dealers and get the trade in value from them and submit it. I did end up answering my own question about this last night after posting. finding out that Massachusetts is a diminished value state, and only the party found less than 50% at fault can recover diminished value from the other parties insurance company. Which by the 25% from kbb, my car is now out $2,775. And I would have to use this figure until I get a true trave in value after repair because every dealer is different.

 

[Accelerated]

It was his willful act to accelerate without looking, which is also very negligent. And should therefore be acceptable to go for treble damages. As far as the diminished value, I have spoken with Kelley blue book about this issue, and "ANY collision involving a vehicle can diminish the value of said vehicle by as much as 25%" I will have to go to a few dealers and get the trade in value from them and submit it. I did end up answering my own question about this last night after posting. finding out that Massachusetts is a diminished value state, and only the party found less than 50% at fault can recover diminished value from the other parties insurance company. Which by the 25% from kbb, my car is now out $2,775. And I would have to use this figure until I get a true trave in value after repair because every dealer is different.

Willful act and intent are two different things, and regardless, as I posted before, auto accidents are not included in the "treble damages" in the state of MA. And, let's not forget, fault has yet to be determined.

You missed an important portion of words by the KBB person you spoke with. Those would be: "by as much as". This is based on severity. I am beginning to find this quite humorous, as while not uncommon, it is also not frequent that someone arbitrarily determines that their vehicle that sustained minor cosmetic damage was diminished in value as much as the guy who got T-boned and needed new doors, frame work, and extensive repair. You have a small dent, a broken headlight and some scuffed paint.

Good luck with that.

 

[Jdavidson015]

To start, I'm not trying to be argumentative, simply explain my view point to what your saying, please don't be offended or take it as simple "babbling" or whatever. I simply want to explain how I am viewing it.
[\QUOTE] First, "devaluation" because of a minor dent and scuffed paint that was repaired? If you had structural damage to the vehicle, and they had to pull the frame or something along those lines, this would be legit, but as it stands now, you are reaching pretty far. Minor cosmetic damages that have been repaired typically have little to zero affect on the value of the vehicle. [\QUOTE]

Through speaking with kbb, any collision involving a vehicle and diminish the value by as much as 25% in my case 2,775 based upon that figure

[\QUOTE] As far as "treble damages" goes, you typically have to establish intent, and further, this typically only applies to bodily injury claims or unfair/deceptive business practices (I could be wrong, but I have encountered this type of thing in the past, and feel quite comfortable with that assertion). Unless your neck suddenly hurts too, you are likely barking up the wrong tree, and even if it does, you would very likely have to prove that the other driver hit you on purpose. [\QUOTE]

I don't believe it is solely the intent of hitting my vehicle, it was his negligent intent on accelerating which ended with hitting my vehicle as the result. Negligent by not looking/ distracted driving. But I don't believe this is the proper avenue based upon what I have found out in the meantime.

[\QUOTE] At this point, please think about how the one's who are going to potentially write a check for damages perceive you, and keep in mind that this is based on your presentation here on the forums:
1. You are extremely excited about a minor loss (not abnormal, but not helpful either).[\QUOTE]
I don't understand excitement in this instance, I'm pissed that I have to deal with this ****, and simply want what is rightfully mine.

Lastly, again i don't mean to should like an ass or anything but your 20000 or 25000 treble damage value is incorrect. I use court as a threat simply to get the proper settlement, I have personally filed 2 treble damage cases in the last 2 years. Long stories, short version of one is a storage company we rented a unit from screwed up some paperwork, cut our lock and threw out our entire unit. I Sent a letter of intent seeking treble damages valued at 65,000 plus court and attorney fees. settled at 35,000, knowing full well we could have gotten more in court.

Thanks again for your insights

----------

Willful act and intent are two different things, and regardless, as I posted before, auto accidents are not included in the "treble damages" in the state of MA. And, let's not forget, fault has yet to be determined.

You missed an important portion of words by the KBB person you spoke with. Those would be: "by as much as". This is based on severity. I am beginning to find this quite humorous, as while not uncommon, it is also not frequent that someone arbitrarily determines that their vehicle that sustained minor cosmetic damage was diminished in value as much as the guy who got T-boned and needed new doors, frame work, and extensive repair. You have a small dent, a broken headlight and some scuffed paint.

Good luck with that.

What I'm saying is that there isn't way to know without having the vehicle repaired and then getting a trade in value from a dealer, so in the meantime, i always assume the worst. Remember, because of carfax, dealers make a huge thing out of nothing. I once had a dealer try to take 5000 off because the vehicle was in a minor rear to rear in a parking lot

 

[Accelerated]

To start, I'm not trying to be argumentative, simply explain my view point to what your saying, please don't be offended or take it as simple "babbling" or whatever. I simply want to explain how I am viewing it.

Through speaking with kbb, any collision involving a vehicle and diminish the value by as much as 25% in my case 2,775 based upon that figure

Again, you are making this an "up to" worst case scenario. Do you really for a single second believe that your vehicle has diminished in value to the same degree as say, a vehicle that got hot so hard that is barely came in below a total loss and required extensive frame and body repair?

If you do, there is nothing I can do to help you. You have already proven that you like to blow thing way our of proportion, based on the two threads you created over the last couple of weeks, so I may just be talking to a wall here, but I really am trying to help you establish realistic expectations.

I don't believe it is solely the intent of hitting my vehicle, it was his negligent intent on accelerating which ended with hitting my vehicle as the result. Negligent by not looking/ distracted driving. But I don't believe this is the proper avenue based upon what I have found out in the meantime.

Nobody likes a guardhouse lawyer, especially one who does not understand the definitions of the words they are using, like intent and negligence. Further, with no fault actually established yet, you sure are going out on a limb with the assertions.

I don't understand excitement in this instance, I'm pissed that I have to deal with this ****, and simply want what is rightfully mine.

Again, fault has not yet been established. What if it's not yours to begin with? That is the first thing you need to deal with, and when, rather than addressing that little issue, you are throwing out arbitrary repair costs and arbitrary devaluation percentages and demanding sums to which you have yet to establish a claim to, you are not helping yourself, regardless of how upset you are.

Lastly, again i don't mean to should like an ass or anything but your 20000 or 25000 treble damage value is incorrect.

I was not aware that I set a value at all. I put up a quote from Harvard Law that was put in place to assist people with small claims in your state. If you have a problem with what they said, call the legal people at Harvard Law and complain. Maybe rhetoric and random assertions with little support or justification will sway their opinions If you read what I personally said, it was something to the effect of "treble damages awards do not apply to simple auto accidents in MA, based on what info I can find on them".

I use court as a threat simply to get the proper settlement,

You might want to consider trying to establish who was at fault first, but, what do I know...

I have personally filed 2 treble damage cases in the last 2 years. Long stories, short version of one is a storage company we rented a unit from screwed up some paperwork, cut our lock and threw out our entire unit. I Sent a letter of intent seeking treble damages valued at 65,000 plus court and attorney fees. settled at 35,000, knowing full well we could have gotten more in court.

Bragging about how you are a litigious person who likes threaten to go to court before establishing the facts of a loss (based on this thread alone) probably will not make people want to help you either. Just food for thought.

What I'm saying is that there isn't way to know without having the vehicle repaired and then getting a trade in value from a dealer, so in the meantime, i always assume the worst. Remember, because of carfax, dealers make a huge thing out of nothing. I once had a dealer try to take 5000 off because the vehicle was in a minor rear to rear in a parking lot

No, thats not what you were saying at all. You were saying "this minor damage has reduced the value of my car by 25%, because somebody somewhere said that "a collision could reduce the value up to 25%", with no consideration granted to the severity of damage it would require to reduce the value by what percentage.

This is insurance. In the world of insurance claims, we do not deal with arbitrary numbers or anything else that cannot be quantified, measured and valued. Thus far, the info you have provided has zero supporting documentation as far as I can tell.

• No police report
• No determination of fault
• No estimate of damages (except that provided by the adjuster)
• No "devaluation" estimate

How do you intend to go to court without any of that?! If you lost (and with that list unresolved, you probably would), you would spend more on court and legal fees than the damages (even the higher figures that you presented, with no supporting docs) to your vehicle.

 

[Jdavidson015]

Again, you are making this an "up to" worst case scenario. Do you really for a single second believe that your vehicle has diminished in value to the same degree as say, a vehicle that got hot so hard that is barely came in below a total loss and required extensive frame and body repair?

If you do, there is nothing I can do to help you. You have already proven that you like to blow thing way our of proportion, based on the two threads you created over the last couple of weeks, so I may just be talking to a wall here, but I really am trying to help you establish realistic expectations.


Nobody likes a guardhouse lawyer, especially one who does not understand the definitions of the words they are using, like intent and negligence. Further, with no fault actually established yet, you sure are going out on a limb with the assertions.


Again, fault has not yet been established. What if it's not yours to begin with? That is the first thing you need to deal with, and when, rather than addressing that little issue, you are throwing out arbitrary repair costs and arbitrary devaluation percentages and demanding sums to which you have yet to establish a claim to, you are not helping yourself, regardless of how upset you are.



I was not aware that I set a value at all. I put up a quote from Harvard Law that was put in place to assist people with small claims in your state. If you have a problem with what they said, call the legal people at Harvard Law and complain. Maybe rhetoric and random assertions with little support or justification will sway their opinions If you read what I personally said, it was something to the effect of "treble damages awards do not apply to simple auto accidents in MA, based on what info I can find on them".


You might want to consider trying to establish who was at fault first, but, what do I know...


Bragging about how you are a litigious person who likes threaten to go to court before establishing the facts of a loss (based on this thread alone) probably will not make people want to help you either. Just food for thought.




No, thats not what you were saying at all. You were saying "this minor damage has reduced the value of my car by 25%, because somebody somewhere said that "a collision could reduce the value up to 25%", with no consideration granted to the severity of damage it would require to reduce the value by what percentage.

This is insurance. In the world of insurance claims, we do not deal with arbitrary numbers or anything else that cannot be quantified, measured and valued. Thus far, the info you have provided has zero supporting documentation as far as I can tell.

• No police report
• No determination of fault
• No estimate of damages (except that provided by the adjuster)
• No "devaluation" estimate

How do you intend to go to court without any of that?! If you lost (and with that list unresolved, you probably would), you would spend more on court and legal fees than the damages (even the higher figures that you presented, with no supporting docs) to your vehicle.

Do you really think I would go to court without any docs??? That's just stupid, I know I have to wait for all that info. And as far as devaluation, I just ran trade in value on auto trader based upon what the body shops told me, not what the adjuster said, and it came back at 4220 where the clean value is 11,100. So yea I definitely would go after it if he is found at fault

 

[xrac]

Do you really think I would go to court without any docs??? That's just stupid, I know I have to wait for all that info. And as far as devaluation, I just ran trade in value on auto trader based upon what the body shops told me, not what the adjuster said, and it came back at 4220 where the clean value is 11,100. So yea I definitely would go after it if he is found at fault

I would not want to be the guy who was unfortunate enough to be involved in any kind of accident or business dealings with you. You sound like someone who tries to take advantage in every situation. I do not see how a $1000 repair devalues a car. In today's world $1,000 is a scratch.

Have you ever been in court or been involved in litigation. I have been involved in about 2 dozen small claims court cases and my side has never lost. The only time I thought we would lose I settled ahead of time. I think there is a high probability that a judge in small claims court would rule against you. Remember you will be facing an attorney for the insurance company and judges tend to take a common sense middle of the road approach. I think a judge would laugh at treble damages.

 

[Accelerated]

Do you really think I would go to court without any docs??? That's just stupid, I know I have to wait for all that info. And as far as devaluation, I just ran trade in value on auto trader based upon what the body shops told me, not what the adjuster said, and it came back at 4220 where the clean value is 11,100. So yea I definitely would go after it if he is found at fault

Based on your assertions thus far, threats of litigation, lack of any estimate to support your assertions, and the lack of a determination of fault, it does not seem unreasonable to presume that you would indeed jump in prior to having the facts at your disposal.

On the Auto Trader thing, are you looking at the value of your vehicle and then comparing it to retail or trade in? The spread seems a little wide for trade in based on the damages you have. On the surface, it looks like you ran a worst case condition report (before repairs) and compared it to what a dealer would sell it for, but that is just a guess, since I have not seen what exactly you were looking at.
If that is how you got the figures you are showing, it's a bit.. disingenuous.

 

[djs]

Actually, attorneys are not allowed in small claims. But, insurance companies use very experienced non-attorney litigators.

I'd love to see how a $1000 repair diminishes a car by $6000 in value. You basically had to say it was a salvaged title, never repaired, or something similar to even come close to this.

I'm assuming that at this point, fault has already been determined (cut and dry from your description of the accident anyway) and that the other carrier has determined that you are at fault. I'm basing this on the fact that they haven't fixed your car yet, though I might be a bit premature on this.

Hopefully the other driver doesn't go after you for treble damages now. After all, you were negligent when you violated the right of way. Did you intend to? Well, in your way of thinking, it sounds like you did.

Seriously though, don't keep trying to make such a minor issue into a profit center. It doesn't help anyone and its clearly what you are now trying to do. Keep in mind, from everything you have said, you will be found at fault for this accident, no way around it. I know you don't want to hear that, but get ready for this to be the reality. In any reasonable way of looking at this, you were at fault (over 50%) for this accident.

Its time to move on. Let us know how this turns out. You no longer want any advice, you are just looking for ways to bolster your case, which isn't happening here.

Dan

 

[xrac]

Actually, attorneys are not allowed in small claims. But, insurance companies use very experienced non-attorney litigators.

I'd love to see how a $1000 repair diminishes a car by $6000 in value. You basically had to say it was a salvaged title, never repaired, or something similar to even come close to this.

I'm assuming that at this point, fault has already been determined (cut and dry from your description of the accident anyway) and that the other carrier has determined that you are at fault. I'm basing this on the fact that they haven't fixed your car yet, though I might be a bit premature on this.

Hopefully the other driver doesn't go after you for treble damages now. After all, you were negligent when you violated the right of way. Did you intend to? Well, in your way of thinking, it sounds like you did.

Seriously though, don't keep trying to make such a minor issue into a profit center. It doesn't help anyone and its clearly what you are now trying to do. Keep in mind, from everything you have said, you will be found at fault for this accident, no way around it. I know you don't want to hear that, but get ready for this to be the reality. In any reasonable way of looking at this, you were at fault (over 50%) for this accident.

Its time to move on. Let us know how this turns out. You no longer want any advice, you are just looking for ways to bolster your case, which isn't happening here.

Dan

Attorneys are allowed in small claims court in Indiana.