The Top 5 Lead Generation Secrets That Vendors DO NOT Want You To

[dgoldenz]

Re: The Top 5 Lead Generation Secrets That Lead Vendors DO NOT Wa

Only if you ignore a lot of costs.
You have to do something to market your website, whether its pay per click, organic SEO, mailing flyers, whatever. There is a true cost here.

You also have to build (and maintain) a website. Even if you figure this is only $500, this would add $1/lead cost to the first 500 leads. Chances are, a good website will cost more.

The chances of website leads being free is pretty small. If this was possible, you would be able to buy leads a lot cheaper.

Things have changed a lot over the last 2 years, but a while back, I figured it would cost me about $25-$30 a lead to develop my own website leads, granted, mostly with pay per click, but even if you did something else, it may be less or more.

And, there are no refunds on self generated leads

Besides, I'm sure Pangaea wouldn't do this if he didn't have a way to make some $$$ out of it!

Dan

Most people will build and continue to host a website whether they use it to generate leads or not, so that's a cost that has already been accounted for. I write content on my own time, which costs me nothing other than the time taken to do it.

 

[fetam]

Re: The Top 5 Lead Generation Secrets That Lead Vendors DO NOT Wa

Read your little report. Good thing in there. #3 though. You can't say that ranking well on google after 2 years "they're lead costs are near to nothing."

Time has very little to do with ranking well. 5% at the most. Maybe word it, substantially less with the cost spread over a certain amount of time instead of instantly.

You don't want to give the idea that someone just has to put up a website and pay next to nothing for their organic ranking. It just doesn't work like that.

Good book though. Definitely a good little starter book for someone thinking about starting some sort of internet lead system.

 

[Pangaea]

Re: The Top 5 Lead Generation Secrets That Lead Vendors DO NOT Wa

The two years wasn't in reference to how to rank, but was used simply as point of contrasting when understanding the variable of time priced into a lead. Comparing someone who built a system and has built it for two years to the point where it's generating organic leads compared to the vendor leveraging capital for media buying purposes.

Thanks for the complement though.

 

[YouGotMyMoney]

Re: The Top 5 Lead Generation Secrets That Lead Vendors DO NOT Wa

I like that djs is thinking about the hard costs associated with generated web traffic.

One thing I want to bring up is a lot of people get suckered into spending thousands of dollars with SEO gurus who really don't teach you anything or provide long lasting results. Case in point, there are few ins call centers in south florida that have given some local seo companies $15-50k to get them on 1st page google, and lol....it didn't happen.

Not putting Pangaea in the same boat as them, just my little public service announcement.

 

[whatyouwantfinally]

Re: The Top 5 Lead Generation Secrets That Lead Vendors DO NOT Wa

My clients don't pay more than $16 per exclusive lead on the worst days. Good campaigns roll around $8 per lead.

Organic leads are on the cheap, affiliate driven leads have a fixed cost, email creatives are on the cheap too (some of you MAY call it spam)...

And Dan, I don't know how I'll make money out of this yet. I figure it'll come to me eventually. It's just crazy enough to work.

Not to mention I have my own lead generation offers in other sectors.

I read through your report and, no offense, but I disagree with most of the meaty stuff in there.

First, you say it's important for consumers (leads) to know who you are before you contact them. You then go on to say you need to call them the second they come in. Contradiction.

Second, your claim that the cost of generating a lead has nothing to do with lead "quality". If my site orgnically ranks high for "Free Electronics" and happens to have a quote form, the "quality" is likely to be a lot lower than a $15 PPC-generated lead for the words "health insurance." There's a reason organic rankings are difficult for valuable searches and certain adwords cost more than others.

And no, the money paid by 1 agent for 1 lead does not cover the marketing costs for the lead. As many times as leads are sold, companies in the insurance internet lead industry don't even operate at a 30% profit margin on real-time leads; many (probably most) are FAR below that.

Look at the going rate on Google for the adwords "health insurance." It's consistently in the $10-$15/click range. A click does not equate to a lead. There's something called "conversion rate", which is the % of people that click on your ad that actually complete the quote form on your site. You seem to assume that % is 100%; it's not.

The biggest flaw I saw overall (or perhaps the biggest secret you left out) is that companies that sell leads to agents, with a few exceptions, aren't really in the lead generating business. They do a good job of creating that illusion, but they are lead AGGREGATORS, which is a fancy way of saying they buy leads from affiliates.

Here's a real scenario; lead companies are moving towards a "ping post" method with affiliates. This means they set a "bid" with affiliates on various lead types. The affiliates "ping" their buyers (the lead companies) and the lead goes the highest bidder. If a company has less demand, for example, for life leads, they'll lower their bid, meaning they'll be the highest bidder less often. That's how they control cost.

I applaud the effort, but you're off on big things and what I'd consider the "Top 5 Secrets" weren't mentioned. Here's one; did you know most lead vendors charge back their payment to an affiliate for a lead if 1 agent who received it requests and receives a refund, regardless of whether or not the other recipients do? That's why some are so lenient with refunds; they get to keep the money from the agents who didn't request refunds while getting their own money back. When lead companies tighten up their refund policies, it's not because they don't want to refund the agent (leads where a refund is granted are generally the most profitable due to the reason above); it's because they don't want to upset valuable affiliates.

 

[Pangaea]

Re: The Top 5 Lead Generation Secrets That Lead Vendors DO NOT Wa

I like that djs is thinking about the hard costs associated with generated web traffic.

One thing I want to bring up is a lot of people get suckered into spending thousands of dollars with SEO gurus who really don't teach you anything or provide long lasting results. Case in point, there are few ins call centers in south florida that have given some local seo companies $15-50k to get them on 1st page google, and lol....it didn't happen.

Not putting Pangaea in the same boat as them, just my little public service announcement.

I've definitely never charged 15-50K for SEO. Considering 90% of my biz is PPC management (Which is a percentage of your budget and performance-based.). BUT... It sure does sound interesting. Who wouldn't want to charge that much without having to guarantee results?!
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I read through your report and, no offense, but I disagree with most of the meaty stuff in there.

First, you say it's important for consumers (leads) to know who you are before you contact them. You then go on to say you need to call them the second they come in. Contradiction.

Second, your claim that the cost of generating a lead has nothing to do with lead "quality". If my site orgnically ranks high for "Free Electronics" and happens to have a quote form, the "quality" is likely to be a lot lower than a $15 PPC-generated lead for the words "health insurance." There's a reason organic rankings are difficult for valuable searches and certain adwords cost more than others.

And no, the money paid by 1 agent for 1 lead does not cover the marketing costs for the lead. As many times as leads are sold, companies in the insurance internet lead industry don't even operate at a 30% profit margin on real-time leads; many (probably most) are FAR below that.

Look at the going rate on Google for the adwords "health insurance." It's consistently in the $10-$15/click range. A click does not equate to a lead. There's something called "conversion rate", which is the % of people that click on your ad that actually complete the quote form on your site. You seem to assume that % is 100%; it's not.

The biggest flaw I saw overall (or perhaps the biggest secret you left out) is that companies that sell leads to agents, with a few exceptions, aren't really in the lead generating business. They do a good job of creating that illusion, but they are lead AGGREGATORS, which is a fancy way of saying they buy leads from affiliates.

Here's a real scenario; lead companies are moving towards a "ping post" method with affiliates. This means they set a "bid" with affiliates on various lead types. The affiliates "ping" their buyers (the lead companies) and the lead goes the highest bidder. If a company has less demand, for example, for life leads, they'll lower their bid, meaning they'll be the highest bidder less often. That's how they control cost.

I applaud the effort, but you're off on big things and what I'd consider the "Top 5 Secrets" weren't mentioned. Here's one; did you know most lead vendors charge back their payment to an affiliate for a lead if 1 agent who received it requests and receives a refund, regardless of whether or not the other recipients do? That's why some are so lenient with refunds; they get to keep the money from the agents who didn't request refunds while getting their own money back. When lead companies tighten up their refund policies, it's not because they don't want to refund the agent (leads where a refund is granted are generally the most profitable due to the reason above); it's because they don't want to upset valuable affiliates.

Are you honestly telling me what my leads aren't costing me? My health insurance campaign is at $16.81 per conversion right now with a conversion rate (1-per-click at 22.36%) for 72 leads Mon-Tues.

I don't normally get into pissing matches over PPC, but anyone who's paying 10 a click is an ***.

Here are my numbers for the only major medical I'm doing right now:

Since I'm not an *** I'm going to hide my niche keywords and what my landing page is obviously.

I have campaigns (as an advertiser & affiliate) with Clickbooth a.k.a IntegraClick and Hydra so I DEFINITELY understand the affiliate marketing game. I also know about scrub rates, tracking pixels, better payouts for super affiliates, with media buys, and aff managers.

And I definitely wouldn't say it's a secret to anyone that companies use affiliates. MANY people on here ask the lead vendors if they use affiliates when screening them.

Thank you for teaching me what I already know.

You're entitled to disagree. Just don't try and tell me what's possible.

Cheers.

BTW, PPC with Google isn't my number one source for traffic.

 

[whatyouwantfinally]

Re: The Top 5 Lead Generation Secrets That Lead Vendors DO NOT Wa

Are you honestly telling me what my leads aren't costing me? My health insurance campaign is at $16.81 per conversion right now with a conversion rate (1-per-click at 22.36%) for 72 leads Mon-Tues.

That's really good, but $16.81 is a lot more than what a health lead goes for. Health leads are a rough game for the vendors; their acquisition cost from affiliates is lower than $16, but the majority of the time they don't have anyone to sell the lead to but a call center or 2 that pay $2, which is why they have to sell to each other.

I don't normally get into pissing matches over PPC, but anyone who's paying 10 a click is an ***.

That said, check out the average bid on "insurance leads".

And I definitely wouldn't say it's a secret to anyone that companies use affiliates. MANY people on here ask the lead vendors if they use affiliates when screening them.

I think even asking "Do you use affiliates" is a sign an agent doesn't get it. If a company really had the ability to generate significant lead flow, why on earth would they take on the task of dealing with thousands of agents and the risk/inevitability of losing money on a decent % of leads when they can just have 1 client (a vendor, or a couple vendors) and be guaranteed profit on every lead?

Thank you for teaching me what I already know.

You're entitled to disagree. Just don't try and tell me what's possible.

Cheers.

BTW, PPC with Google isn't my number one source for traffic.

I'm not doubting you know your stuff, and it's entirely possible that you're able to generate leads for around $16. It's just that your article gave me the impression you're saying lead companies can easily make that profitable selling a lead once.

 

[Pangaea]

Re: The Top 5 Lead Generation Secrets That Lead Vendors DO NOT Wa

That's really good, but $16.81 is a lot more than what a health lead goes for. Health leads are a rough game for the vendors; their acquisition cost from affiliates is lower than $16, but the majority of the time they don't have anyone to sell the lead to but a call center or 2 that pay $2, which is why they have to sell to each other.



That said, check out the average bid on "insurance leads".



I think even asking "Do you use affiliates" is a sign an agent doesn't get it. If a company really had the ability to generate significant lead flow, why on earth would they take on the task of dealing with thousands of agents and the risk/inevitability of losing money on a decent % of leads when they can just have 1 client (a vendor, or a couple vendors) and be guaranteed profit on every lead?



I'm not doubting you know your stuff, and it's entirely possible that you're able to generate leads for around $16. It's just that your article gave me the impression you're saying lead companies can easily make that profitable selling a lead once.

Like I said in the PM I never sold a health lead so I don't know their break even point, keep in mind lead university isn't specifically for one industry only. Yet, the niches I mentioned (in the pm) do break even with the first sale.

The reasons you mentioned are exactly why I don't get in the insurance lead selling business. But, keep in mind $16 and change is for an exclusive lead.

I think the biggest thing we're not mentioning is how the affiliates are making the health leads (email creatives) for around 3-6 a lead.

Anywho, it's just a free school. Feel free to sign up. It's not just about Internet leads (and not industry specific). We also have television and radio guys lined up to give classes.

 

[CHUMPS FROM OXFORD]

Re: The Top 5 Lead Generation Secrets That Vendors DO NOT Want Yo

I will vouch that "whatyouwantfinally" knows his stuff.

 

[dadkins131]

Re: The Top 5 Lead Generation Secrets That Vendors DO NOT Want Yo

It amazes me how people on this forum are so quick to chop someone down, or discredit their claims. They are even quicker to duck the hard evidence when posted in front of their face.