My Oldest Son!

[Guest]

It's not up to parents or soldiers to determine if a war is just.

Well, this morphs into a different subject.

So when you were in the military you would carry out any order given? I don't think you would. If there is such a thing in the UCMJ as an unjust order, then there must be such a thing as an unjust war. If there isn't, there surely is an un-winnable war... which to me is just as unjust. Why you folks will sacrifice your children for an un-winnable cause I don't understand. Is there one of you out there that believe the people of Iraq or Afg. give a rat's a$$ about the death or dismemberment of your son or daughter?

I can never figure out the rationale of your neo-con mind. You post here a hundred times a week about how the Federal government 'violates' your rights. You vigorously protest their attempt to take your guns, or make you use seat belts, or make you wear motorcycle helmets, or make you pay taxes, or make you drive on the right side of the road, etc., etc., etc.

Look at healthcare. Most of you would give up your right hand than see any kind of national health care system. You folks are the "king" of individual rights, privacy, and so on.

But when the government says "Hey neos, send your boys off to Iraq and Afg. to be killed and maimed because not to do so would be disloyal" you folks wrap yourselves in the flag and rush your kids over to the recruiting office... just like you rushed off to Vietnam.

There is not a war you won't support. When your sainted military says "We haven't killed enough kids yet (in the past 8 years) to determine if we've really lost so send us some more," you gladly comply and tell me that "I need to do this because when the government (coach) "calls the play I have to run it."

You neo-cons are fairly good at thinking for yourselves and following your own "drummer" on social issues, but let some politician (or brass hat) yell "national security" you guys fall right in line and are perfectly willing to see 100,000 caskets come off the plane.

Like I say... I'll never figure you guys out. When the President says "We need national healthcare you strap a Glock on your leg and go protest." When the government says "We need you to send your son to be murdered in the Middle East for national security" you gladly hand them over to be sent to the grinder.

You folks are very strange.

 

[GreenSky]

Nobody I know would gladly send their sons to be murdered in the Middle East. But most would be proud that their sons were brave enough to die for their beliefs.

I avoided Vietnam and never served. I am opposed to the wars in Iraq and Afganistan and would immediately not only bring our troops home from there, but from 90% of the countries we occupy.

But I'm damn proud of anyone who is willing to put their lives on the line. Would I want my son to serve? Absolutely not! I'm not that brave that I would want to risk losing my son. But that doesn't diminish my feeling for others who might disagree.

And if my son enlisted, I would be damn proud of him also.

Question for you Al. If Iran drops the bomb on Israel, would it be okay with you if our troops came to their defense? Or are you just anti-everything that doesn't personally affect you?

By the way, I think we should stop supporting Israel and every other country in the area. Does that make me a racist?

Rick

 

[Guest]

Question for you Al. If Iran drops the bomb on Israel, would it be okay with you if our troops came to their defense?

I tend to side with Hans J. Morgenthau's view that "A great nation only goes to war for national self-interest and security."

If it could be established that our national security was directly threatened I would support the action. However, I fail to see how the loss of Israel would somehow directly threaten the security of the US.

The neos want to police the world.

It simply can't be done. We lost in Vietnam trying to do that. We are losing again and will eventually leave in defeat.

Like Rick, I'd close every military base we have in the world and tell the rest of the world to raise their own damn army and protect their own damn ass.

You neo-cons love the idea of nation-building and militarism. I'm sure a lot of you would support a military government in the US! I'm sure a lot (not all) of the arch-cons here are damn sorry they missed Germany in 1935 with the option to wear brown shirts, black shirts, nice boots, good looking revolvers, and really cool arm-bands... and no one would dare f--k with THEM! It's what arch-con dreams are made of!

 

[stormtracker]

Al, it's not that the war is winnable, or not. Modern history shows us that ANY war this country is involved in will be frittered away by political indecisiveness and retrospect-- no matter what the initial resolve. I totally agree with your sentiment about dying in futility. By the same token, that flag also represents you and me, the civilian order of the populace. Under that flag, we are free to pursue our lives for relatively little price. Some of our brethren choose to pay a steeper price. Would we still exist if we circled the wagons and opted for isolationism? I don't know. I don't think I want to know what that country would be like. But, we are what we are. Someone's got to do that job, no matter who's giving the orders. We should ALL be grateful to those young men and women. I hope that you too, share at least some of that heritage.

 

[ergammill]

Dave, thanks for the post, before AL3 got it off track.


AL3, if you have such a hate for this country, then why do you stay?


There are many socialist countries in the world that already have the type of system and government that you are always running your mouth about, you are the one that whats to change my country to be like the rest of the world. I simply don't understand the kind of people who don't like what the founding fathers did, and instead of going some where, they try to change the rest of as.


Al3 I am not a neo-con, I am a libertarian, that's means you do what you want and I'll leave you alone, as long as you let me do what I want and leave me alone. Government is not and has never been the answer.


At one time this was the best forum to be found, however in the last 6 months you had made it unbearable, no one can say anything without you high-jacking the thread for your “cause”

It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press.

It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech.

It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.

It is the soldier, who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag.

If someone wants to start a fund to help Al3 move to Venezuela, let me know, I'll be the first to donate

 

[Crabcake Johnny]

I tend to side with Hans J. Morgenthau's view that "A great nation only goes to war for national self-interest and security."

If it could be established that our national security was directly threatened I would support the action. However, I fail to see how the loss of Israel would somehow directly threaten the security of the US.

The neos want to police the world.

It simply can't be done. We lost in Vietnam trying to do that. We are losing again and will eventually leave in defeat.

Like Rick, I'd close every military base we have in the world and tell the rest of the world to raise their own damn army and protect their own damn ass.

You neo-cons love the idea of nation-building and militarism. I'm sure a lot of you would support a military government in the US! I'm sure a lot (not all) of the arch-cons here are damn sorry they missed Germany in 1935 with the option to wear brown shirts, black shirts, nice boots, good looking revolvers, and really cool arm-bands... and no one would dare f--k with THEM! It's what arch-con dreams are made of!

Actually Al I'd do the same thing as President; every troop comes now...now. Not in a month, 4, 6 - but now. Wrap it up.

Every time we kill 10 civilians we create 100 people who despise the U.S. It's "un-winnable" and last time I checked Afghanistan wasn't planning in invading us.

There is a small terrorist element there troops can't solve. Ask the Soviets about fighting there - they'll tell you all about it.

I'm on the sidelines now and believe "war" should be used for either a direct threat to our nation or in a case like Hitler when another country decided to start a war.

Other than that we have business at home. Sometime we need some perspective as to how our actions are viewed by others.

 

[cratos]

AL3 if you had any sense you would re-read your isolationism post and realize how utterly stupid it sounds. Your safety and freedom are provided by our activities abroad, whether or not YOU see the direct effect. If you are too simple minded to make that connection then the rest of us are wasting our time and energy on you.

And before you ask...

Yes I served, as has nearly every male in my family. And nothing would make me more proud than for any or all of my 4 sons to serve in our military when they reach that age.

 

[TristanTLC]

I fight because the alternative is just not acceptable. As a former Military Officer, I give up my right to democracy so that everyone else may maintain their democracy.

Even if I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that I will loose, I still choose to fight. Courage is doing what you know you must do, even when you already know the outcome. Someone must walk into the fire of battle, so that you can have the luxury of debating the morality of my actions.

Enjoy your liberty, I'd do it again for you in a heart beat.

 

[Winter_123]

Since we are talking about great warriors, I will point out that those are Mescalero (sp) Apaches. The one furthest to our right is Geronimo.

 

[WinoBlues]

I fight because the alternative is just not acceptable. As a former Military Officer, I give up my right to democracy so that everyone else may maintain their democracy.

Even if I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that I will loose, I still choose to fight. Courage is doing what you know you must do, even when you already know the outcome. Someone must walk into the fire of battle, so that you can have the luxury of debating the morality of my actions.

Enjoy your liberty, I'd do it again for you in a heart beat.

Here Here!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Since we are talking about great warriors, I will point out that those are Mescalero (sp) Apaches. The one furthest to our right is Geronimo.

Some original guerilla fighters

Great picture.