Workers Comp and DI ?

[scagnt83]

Ok...thanks Vol.

So the Century DI product might be a better choice (i assume its also from Assurity). I'm a little disappointed in their Rep Bruce. He was a little confusing but, i'll check into that other product as well. Thank you.



Thank you scagt...!

No problem.

The thing about internal sales reps, is that they are similar to agents: Some know more than others do. Some are able to communicate better than others do.

The Internal Sales Desk is a starting type of position. If they are any good, they will eventually move up to being a Regional Wholesaler, which is an "outside" sales position. Your Regional will know a lot more than the internal, generally speaking at least.

 

[Mike Siegal]

Yes, it is also an Assurity product. I would probably look at other companies as well. I have no idea if your guy will qualify based on occ class, I just saw it is their better DI product.

Appreciate it man.

I'm not talking 1 prospect...I'M TALKING "Many." What can apply to 1 can apply to Many.

This forum is DEAD except for a few experts here-n-there.

 

[scagnt83]

Appreciate it man.

I'm not talking 1 prospect...I'M TALKING "Many." What can apply to 1 can apply to Many.

This forum is DEAD except for a few experts here-n-there.

Disability Insurance is all about the Occupation Class. Some carriers are more competitive with certain occupations than others. For instance, a Journalist might be Occ-Class 5 with one carrier, but Occ-Class 4 (riskier rating) with another.

Then, there are health considerations, which all carriers treat slightly differently than each other. So finding the "sweet spot" among carriers for a prospect is more complicated than life or ltci.

Its not a product that you can use just 1 "go-to" carrier all the time. At least not if you want to give the client the best policy for their situation. Of course, "best policy" is subjective as well. I should rephrase and say "best price out of the top carriers". Guardian has the most comprehensive policy, followed probably by Standard. But not everyone wants or needs a Cadillac.

 

[junkman]

Guys, you need to read the contract. Carriers go by occupation and income. Read and understand the "definition of disability ". Some contracts only require inability to perform activities of current occupation. Others also require a loss of income. Be very sure to explain the difference.

I had a case essentially of 3 owners of a C Corp. One by one all became disabled. They bought only group DI because it was so cheap.

The group required a loss of income and they basically couldn't take much out of the company. It was with the DI pay or the company pay but not both.

I think we worked something like a loan which isn't income but it required a lot of hoops to get them money. We went into the 08 debacle and business tanked. The group rates went up but we couldn't change carriers because of health issues we didn't originally have.

Recommendations you make have importance. Write a letter documenting what you did and why after things are set up. Include positives and negatives and reasons. Include the downside like disability definition. Keep a copy. You are responsible for your recommendation, not client's buying decisions. Document, document, document and keep records.

 

[VolAgent]

Guys, you need to read the contract. Carriers go by occupation and income. Read and understand the "definition of disability ". Some contracts only require inability to perform activities of current occupation. Others also require a loss of income. Be very sure to explain the difference.

I had a case essentially of 3 owners of a C Corp. One by one all became disabled. They bought only group DI because it was so cheap.

The group required a loss of income and they basically couldn't take much out of the company. It was with the DI pay or the company pay but not both.

I think we worked something like a loan which isn't income but it required a lot of hoops to get them money. We went into the 08 debacle and business tanked. The group rates went up but we couldn't change carriers because of health issues we didn't originally have.

Recommendations you make have importance. Write a letter documenting what you did and why after things are set up. Include positives and negatives and reasons. Include the downside like disability definition. Keep a copy. You are responsible for your recommendation, not client's buying decisions. Document, document, document and keep records.

I think the whole discussion revolved around not reading the contract.

As to your statement, I can't recall a single DI policy that does not require loss of income except for presumptive total disability. And even then, I'd have to go back and read exactly how it is written.

 

[scagnt83]

I can't recall a single DI policy that does not require loss of income except for presumptive total disability. And even then, I'd have to go back and read exactly how it is written.

Guardian does but doesnt for their True Own-Occ.

You must have a loss in income from your Own-Occupation. But you can still be employed in Any-Occupation during this time.

Here is their official wording:

"Total disability or totally disabled means solely due
to injury or sickness you are not able to perform the
material and substantial duties of your occupation,
even if you are gainfully employed in another
occupation. "

 

[VolAgent]

Guardian does but doesnt for their True Own-Occ.

You must have a loss in income from your Own-Occupation. But you can still be employed in Any-Occupation during this time.

Here is their official wording:

"Total disability or totally disabled means solely due
to injury or sickness you are not able to perform the
material and substantial duties of your occupation,
even if you are gainfully employed in another
occupation. "

Quite right, and I should have been more specific.

However, in Junkman's case it wouldn't have applied. The income was still coming from their primary occupation, the business. I suspect they weren't taking a salary and thus when the profits continued, there would have been no loss of income.

So to be more specific, I am not aware of any DI policy that does not require a loss of income, in own occupation if a true own occ policy, except for presumptive total disability. And even that would depend upon exact contract language.

 

[scagnt83]

Quite right, and I should have been more specific.

However, in Junkman's case it wouldn't have applied. The income was still coming from their primary occupation, the business. I suspect they weren't taking a salary and thus when the profits continued, there would have been no loss of income.

So to be more specific, I am not aware of any DI policy that does not require a loss of income, in own occupation if a true own occ policy, except for presumptive total disability. And even that would depend upon exact contract language.

I wasnt saying you were wrong. Technically you were correct. Just pointing out that unique feature.

And yes, it sounds like that is exactly what happened in that situation.

--------------

Junkman,

If they were Shareholders only, and not Employees as well, and the business continued to be profitable after their Disability; then DI was not needed in that situation.

Its not Disability Insurance. Its Disability INCOME Insurance. Its Income Protection. If there is no loss of income, there is no need for Income Protection to pay benefits.

Now if the business suffered due to their Disabilities, then a decent policy could have paid a partial benefit for that loss.

Also, IF the business suffered due to their Disabilities, then they should have had BOE Insurance.

Its very rare that Group DI would be adequate for high earning shareholders who are actively involved in business decisions. Unless it were Individual Policies sold on a multi-life payroll deducted basis.

 

[junkman]

They were employees and the only stock holders. They quit taking a salary to collect off the DI. Then, money had to come from dividends which was subject to double tax (corp + personal) but the contract paid.

Yes, group DI was insufficient and we (agents) knew it and explained it. We let them buy what they were willing to pay for. One would get sick and the other two would keep the co going.

It was a good opportunity for buy sell and all of that fancy planning stuff that you like to find. The only problem was that the principals wouldn't pay premium or even get down to serious planning. The last I heard was a former GF and long time employee was keeping the company a float. The original 3 owners were dead. Strange what time brings.

Some contracts cost more because they are worth more. Others just cost more.

 

[eersfan]

One key piece of information in a case like this is whether the owner is being insured an an owner or a welder. It's going to depend upon what he does...is he a welder who happens to own the company or is he an owner who manages a welding company.

I have run into this many time with owners of roofing companies. If they rarely, if ever, climb a ladder, I can get them a much better occ class that if they are swinging a hammer on a roof all day AND happen to own the company.