Insurance Scam

[Dave020]

My problem is not with the concept, I like the idea of airing out things to the public, both good and bad.

My problem is that if you are going to use the ROR model and allow anonymous posters to make claims with can in no way be verified, then it crosses the line from transparency to gossip, innuendo and often libel.

It is well known that a significant number of health insurance carrier complaints on ROR are generated by newer agents of a certain "association carrier" which shall remain nameless. There are usually tip offs in the post which others who went through training with that carrier recognize as part of the new agent training program, literally word for word. It is also well known that many posts against the "association carrier" are started by ex-agents and agents in competition.

I think the idea has merit, certainly, but in the interests of balance and fairness in my world view, the claims made by the OPs should be verified as provable and accurate.

My problem with Madgeson is that he refuses to remove inflammatory and obviously false reports from ROR. It forces companies (often as small as 1 or 2 employees) to have to hear about it from a customer of find it online and rebut it. All the while no one knows if the claim even has any merit. Often companies have to defend themselves because the OP used the wrong name (this happens a lot on there).

You could do a good job with this if you do it fairly. The issue there is that you have to be the moderator, since no carrier will come down to that level to respond to these types of postings.

 

[InsuranceGuru]

My problem is that if you are going to use the ROR model and allow anonymous posters to make claims with can in no way be verified, then it crosses the line from transparency to gossip, innuendo and often libel.

Here's the catch, because while I personally agree with you, Dave, the plain and simple truth is I have a responsibility to users of our website to leave their information ALONE. See, free speech isn't exactly 'free' when, as an ISP, we take on the role of an editor or publisher of a newspaper. If we start making editorial decisions about what gets published and what doesn't, then we are infringing on the free speech of users. We are no longer an ISP at that point - we're a newspaper that picks and chooses what to report.

If that makes any sense, then I hope you understand that doing so means taking on significantly higher levels of liability. This also conflicts with our view - we feel that our best course, for the sake of 'open source' information, is to provide access to all the information available to us.

Unless a court of law decides that something is defamatory (which is a violation of our terms of use and will be removed, whether it's a submission or a link), then it will be published. None of the content that we link to has been reported to us as being ruled 'defamation' by any court, and we must be informed of such a ruling by the party that requests the removal of that content. We comply with all legal orders of the state, local, and federal governments.

It is well known that a significant number of health insurance carrier complaints on ROR are generated by newer agents of a certain "association carrier" which shall remain nameless. There are usually tip offs in the post which others who went through training with that carrier recognize as part of the new agent training program, literally word for word. It is also well known that many posts against the "association carrier" are started by ex-agents and agents in competition.

I'm not aware of which are which, honestly. Again, I would have to be shown legal documentation of which reports are false reports made by new agents of this specific carrier. And if such reports were ruled defamatory in a court of law, I would grant a request to remove links to any of that content. I have received no such documentation.

I think the idea has merit, certainly, but in the interests of balance and fairness in my world view, the claims made by the OPs should be verified as provable and accurate.

To balance out the information offerings, we are always looking for reports from all media sources, not just Ripoff Report. We have a few already and, as we find more, we'll post more. Remember also that the way content is organized on the site, there are two ways to review the information. The left menu contains all the categorized content while the tag cloud on the right contains all the tagged content. We added the page 'Using ISN' to specifically instruct people on 'how' the information is organized, that it IS NOT verified (see Research Step 2), and that users should use their best judgment when interpreting the information.

Beyond that, with the law being what it is, we open ourselves to liability if we act as newspaper publishers that decide what content to include and what not to include. We either take it all or we pick and choose, losing any protection afforded to us as an ISP. Our role is very clear. We don't decide whose information is right and whose information is wrong, whose is worth posting on our forum and whose is not.

My problem with Madgeson is that he refuses to remove inflammatory and obviously false reports from ROR. It forces companies (often as small as 1 or 2 employees) to have to hear about it from a customer of find it online and rebut it. All the while no one knows if the claim even has any merit. Often companies have to defend themselves because the OP used the wrong name (this happens a lot on there).

See, this is MY biggest issue with Ripoff Report. Companies rarely find out they've been reported until they see it online or have a customer telling them they've been reported. At least we tag the information on our site so companies have an easy reference point to monitor how many reports we receive on a daily basis. All they have to do is review the tag.

Another feature is even though a company is listed on our site, the other companies are listed right next to it. If the company has only a handful of complaints while another has many, many more, then everyone sees this. RoR doesn't do this, so when someone searches for a specific company, they see only the reports listed for that company without seeing the number of reports listed for any other company. This is also why we added the menu to the left, so people could literally take the number of reports listed and compare it to the category of insurance they are considering.

So, if a company that offers health insurance has a lot of 'insurance employment' reports, when the visitor clicks on 'health insurance' from the left menu, they can verify of the total number of reports, how many of them actually deal with health insurance. This is why we have a 'Using ISN' page that explains this to users of the site, and we'll try to take this method of organizing information to even higher levels as we advance our information offerings. We really have put a lot of time into 'how' we can make all this information more pallitable, manageable, and 'fair' to all parties involved.

You could do a good job with this if you do it fairly. The issue there is that you have to be the moderator, since no carrier will come down to that level to respond to these types of postings.

I'll be fair by being a fly on the wall... I'll let people have their say and make sure to protect their privacy to the fullest extent afforded to and required of me by law. We'll do our best to organize content so that it accurately represents (as much as possible) the full scope of information available. If we don't have the content that represents the information, we will direct traffic to the places that contain that information so people find it.

 

[Guest]

He actually has clients? Have you verified this?...........................LOL

Not only clients... but clients who think I walk on water. Of course we all know that Jesus was a myth, but there is no harm in letting them believe what they want.

What do YOU do for a living? Oh silly me. You are one of the world's most accomplished insurance agents.... and in bubba-land as well. I forget. Are you in Arkansas... where the law says that when you get divorced that you still remain brother and sister?

You and Rick and Winter... no difference. All three of you are here to hurt people... not help them. "Ask not where the heart of darkness lurks... it lurks in thee."

 

[Winter_123]

Not only clients... but clients who think I walk on water. "

Al, he meant insurance clients. People who you have sold flowers to out at the airport don't count as clients.

 

[Guest]

Al, he meant insurance clients. People who you have sold flowers to out at the airport don't count as clients.

I think I sold a bunch to you. I would not forget such a sweet, tight ass as you have !!!

 

[insuranceexec]

What do YOU do for a living? Oh silly me. You are one of the world's most accomplished insurance agents.... ."

So you have heard of me; that is good to know.........LOL. Keep doing what you do.

 

[Winter_123]

I think I sold a bunch to you. I would not forget such a sweet, tight ass as you have !!!

Only at the San Francisco airport do the Krishnas chant "what a sweet, tight ass you have" when people walk by.

Between Pelosi, the collapsed socialist state of California, being a Krishna (glad you are not something wacky like the Christians you denegrate) and the "San Francisco lifestyle" you surely must be in heaven.

 

[InsuranceGuru]

For those of you with concerns over agents misusing ISN to defame insurance companies, we have added a clear explanation of Agent Submissions that some may find more amicable to the usage of the site.

Because there are laws that govern the conduct of agents, we feel that it is important for us to monitor the content of submissions by agents. Therefore, we do have a way for agents that believe they have important information to offer to provide that information if they wish. Because of the potential damages that could result if un-moderated, we will strictly monitor agent and other professional submissions.

That being said, this is an opportunity for agents to create a listing for their business and website if you are willing to provide well-written, detailed information to help consumers. This may not be something you feel like doing if you strongly object to the context of our website, but this option is available to anyone that wants to contribute helpful, accurate, and detailed information to consumers. Once content is submitted and published, a new menu will be published on the left side of the home page. The category for agent submitted content will be "Agent Advice by State". For those curious as to how people will find your advice, your content will be organized in a growing menu of States on the left.

The About page contains a section that details what we require in order to submit content. As long as we can do it, the advice articles including your business listing will be entirely free. When we start receiving search engine traffic to ISN, these listings could make great ways to market yourself to a growing community. We welcome feedback from agents on whether or not these listings lead to any sales (once our site is receiving consistent traffic), and if not, we'll attack any issues with your continued feedback and suggestions.

The whole purpose is to help consumers, but at least this way, agents can potentially benefit from this by assisting us in our information offerings. And to be very clear, this is an effort to curtail the misuse of our site by agents that might otherwise try to post false, negative information for ulterior purposes. In addition to offering this incentive to agents in general, we will make every attempt to monitor (with the help of our users) and decisively deal with any attempts by agents to abuse our service.

 

[Dave020]

One other thing. If the posts are going to be state-specific, which for insurance is very critical, make sure that your system has accurate state location information requirements.

As is seen often on this forum, one question that has to be asked many times is "what state are you in". Any agent offering advice to someone with a complaint, issue or needing assistance, needs to be familiar with the product specifics of that state to accurately assist.

If you look closely at ROR, you will find many many posts on there with things like:

John Doe, Calgary, California
Jane Doe, Brooklyn, Tennessee
Missy X, Vancouver, Alabama

It's hard to take the post seriously in that situation.

Just a head's up.

 

[LGilmore]

"That being said, this is an opportunity for agents to create a listing for their business and website if you are willing to provide well-written, detailed information to help consumers. "

So how much? Is this how you feel you'll make money?

Or are you going to post for free? or do a junior Ramsey and charge for areas?

hmmmm.....