Senate Report: Illegal Immigrants Benefited from Up to $750M in ObamaCare Subsidies

[healther]

You lefties really do like it when elections are about nothing more than 2 wolves and 1 sheep voting on what is for dinner...

Ok, so this is the second time I've been called a leftie. I am right handed (fact) and I have only ever voted Republican (fact).

It's interesting how "Righties" love to assume that somebody that is willing to make independent objective analyses can not be a conservative. I merely make observations about where I believe the country is headed.

Carry on...

***Edit*** In your defense, I may vote for Bernie Sanders. He is the only candidate I know for certain is not full of it... maybe Kasich... not sure.

 

[LGilmore]

"What you are describing is redistribution and relying on it leads to stagnation and deflation."

Yes, that is always a possibility, but are you claiming it is a certainty?
Usually stagnation occurs when people stop buying.

Ah so much to respond to here, forgive me if I don't officially quote each of you because there is just so much.

"I take $10 away from you and give it to Joe; Joe's personal economy just improved. But your personal economy just got worse. The NET increase to the overall economy between the two of you is a NET of ZERO. Nothing has been created, only moved around"

But as a government am I interested in just your personal economy or everybody's? If Joe is out of work, the government still has to feed, house and clothe Joe. If Joe has an income while providing service to taxpayers (park ranger, policeman, soldier, etc.) "we" are getting something back for the tax payments and those dollars are put back in the market.

It is not the government's primary function to worry about one individual, they have to worry about all. Your point addresses an individual situation. Would your feelings be different if you were in charge of the whole thing?

----------

"Gilmore, what product or service does DC produce and sell to the public for a profit (or loss)?"

The same that you do but on a different scale, management and oversight.
What good or service do you create for your money? Is what you do necessary?

----------

The funny thing is this seems to be a political argument, yet some of the largest growth in "government" have come under conservative watch. While they've lowered taxes, they've increased employees and spending and simply borrowed the money rather than collect it in taxes. Or in the case of the last couple wars, simply did not include it in the bill.

My point when the argument is which side is responsible for growth is Demand is responsible for growth and demand comes from a lot of people with money to spend, not a few. The few only spend so much then their purchasing tapers off because of redundancy.

It doesn't matter what political party is in power, it matters how many consumers you can create with purchasing power. Yes, the government gets involved in the process because they are in charge of the management of the country. You don't have to like it, it just is what it is.

I like that I can travel roads, visit parks, have clean water, our sewage treated and so on.. that is fair use of my tax dollars. I don't like watching videos of a 2 million dollar smart round blowing up 2 bad guys, and then claiming their is no money for disabled vets. But we all have our likes and dislikes.

Mine are certainly different than most of yours here. Doesn't or hasn't bothered me a bit. We're in a business that takes all kinds because the market is all kinds.

 

[tonyisme]

Where's Joe the Plumber when you need him? Joe....are you there?

Here we are almost 8 years later.. you feeling more wealthy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pssvmgEWVqM

 

[toddoxley]

"What you are describing is redistribution and relying on it leads to stagnation and deflation."

Yes, that is always a possibility, but are you claiming it is a certainty?
Usually stagnation occurs when people stop buying.

Ah so much to respond to here, forgive me if I don't officially quote each of you because there is just so much.

"I take $10 away from you and give it to Joe; Joe's personal economy just improved. But your personal economy just got worse. The NET increase to the overall economy between the two of you is a NET of ZERO. Nothing has been created, only moved around"

But as a government am I interested in just your personal economy or everybody's? If Joe is out of work, the government still has to feed, house and clothe Joe. If Joe has an income while providing service to taxpayers (park ranger, policeman, soldier, etc.) "we" are getting something back for the tax payments and those dollars are put back in the market.

It is not the government's primary function to worry about one individual, they have to worry about all. Your point addresses an individual situation. Would your feelings be different if you were in charge of the whole thing?

----------

"Gilmore, what product or service does DC produce and sell to the public for a profit (or loss)?"

The same that you do but on a different scale, management and oversight.
What good or service do you create for your money? Is what you do necessary?

----------

The funny thing is this seems to be a political argument, yet some of the largest growth in "government" have come under conservative watch. While they've lowered taxes, they've increased employees and spending and simply borrowed the money rather than collect it in taxes. Or in the case of the last couple wars, simply did not include it in the bill.

My point when the argument is which side is responsible for growth is Demand is responsible for growth and demand comes from a lot of people with money to spend, not a few. The few only spend so much then their purchasing tapers off because of redundancy.

It doesn't matter what political party is in power, it matters how many consumers you can create with purchasing power. Yes, the government gets involved in the process because they are in charge of the management of the country. You don't have to like it, it just is what it is.

I like that I can travel roads, visit parks, have clean water, our sewage treated and so on.. that is fair use of my tax dollars. I don't like watching videos of a 2 million dollar smart round blowing up 2 bad guys, and then claiming their is no money for disabled vets. But we all have our likes and dislikes.

Mine are certainly different than most of yours here. Doesn't or hasn't bothered me a bit. We're in a business that takes all kinds because the market is all kinds.

This is not a real complicated issue. YAGENTS said it best " Government doesn't exist with out the private sector ( business) however, business would exist without government. They would simply provide for themselves that which government provides. One needs the other, and one does not need the other. Remember, our country was founded ( 1st ever) on the basic principle that our rights come from God not the Government, a King/Queen, some dictator, a Czar or other type of ruler.


This reality does not mean that there is not the need for police, fireman, the VA, bridges, defense etc.

JFK would most likely be ashamed of the Democratic Party of 2016, an admitted Democratic Socialist is doing quite well.

 

[healther]

This is not a real complicated issue. YAGENTS said it best " Government doesn't exist with out the private sector ( business) however, business would exist without government. They would simply provide for themselves that which government provides. One needs the other, and one does not need the other. Remember, our country was founded ( 1st ever) on the basic principle that our rights come from God not the Government, a King/Queen, some dictator, a Czar or other type of ruler.


This reality does not mean that there is not the need for police, fireman, the VA, bridges, defense etc.

JFK would most likely be ashamed of the Democratic Party of 2016, an admitted Democratic Socialist is doing quite well.

To address YAgent-World...

You supported scagent's argument that the current European crises are on-set by Socialism.

So let's take a look at countries that have no government jobs...

Somalia comes to mind. Very little government, most likely not very many government jobs.

Iraq also jumps out at me...

Antarctica has no government...

Afghanistan perhaps???

... feel free to jump in and provide a positive example. One that a sane person may even chose to commit their existence in over ANY of the Socialist countries scagent referred to.

Good luck with that, we'll wait for a response...

 

[toddoxley]

To address YAgent-World...

You supported scagent's argument that the current European crises are on-set by Socialism.

So let's take a look at countries that have no government jobs...

Somalia comes to mind. Very little government, most likely not very many government jobs.

Iraq also jumps out at me...

Antarctica has no government...

Afghanistan perhaps???

... feel free to jump in and provide a positive example. One that a sane person may even chose to commit their existence in over ANY of the Socialist countries scagent referred to.

Good luck with that, we'll wait for a response...

Who in this tread has ever stated that the US constitution calls for " zero" government employees or no government at all ??? That would mean we live in a state of Anarchy...

What is being argued here is that Government does not produce anything cause it only existence is dependent on taking from another entity. Now , I understand that liberal / socialist believe that Capitalism is a " zero sum game". However, the truth of it is Capitalism does not work like that and when a business prospers the economic pie gets bigger for all, not smaller.

Take as an example our health insurance industry. At this very moment every single insurance carrier is losing $$$ ( not prospering) and where are we at this very moment with agent commission ???

I am not going to try to convince you that you should be more afraid of big government than of the private sector. I will not be successful.

 

[healther]

Who in this tread has ever stated that the US constitution calls for " zero" government employees or no government at all ??? That would mean we live in a state of Anarchy...

What is being argued here is that Government does not produce anything cause it only existence is dependent on taking from another entity. Now , I understand that liberal / socialist believe that Capitalism is a " zero sum game". However, the truth of it is Capitalism does not work like that and when a business prospers the economic pie gets bigger for all, not smaller.

Take as an example our health insurance industry. At this very moment every single insurance carrier is losing $$$ ( not prospering) and where are we at this very moment with agent commission ???

I am not going to try to convince you that you should be more afraid of big government than of the private sector. I will not be successful.

Uh... I said no government job examples - not no government examples. Give us one, I can't think of any. You cheered on scagent when he provided Socialist examples, can I get a little dap for giving you some limited government examples?

... and yes, you are correct, I am not afraid of big government or the private sector.

 

[toddoxley]

Uh... I said no government job examples - not no government examples. Give us one, I can't think of any. You cheered on scagent when he provided Socialist examples, can I get a little dap for giving you some limited government examples?

... and yes, you are correct, I am not afraid of big government or the private sector.

Somalia, Antartica, Afghanistan are countries that are either uninhabitable or run by thieves that still live in the middle ages. Are you trying to say that since these countries are not socialist ( with big government) yet they are dirt poor that this means that Socialism is not a bad thing ???

The United States of America is roughly 240 years old. We where founded on the principle of freedom & small government ( no king or queen to rule us) and in this relatively small time in history have become the worlds super power and most productive and wealthiest nation in history. The reason for this is because we are different from all the other socialist / communist government in history.

I am not really sure what your point of contention is today but please do not try to convince any of us that our Government needs to be bigger for the greater good. If this is what you desire than Canada is just to the North.

 

[LGilmore]

"This reality does not mean that there is not the need for police, fireman, the VA, bridges, defense etc. "

Thank you, I think somebody got it. One is dependent on the other. One can't be successful (growth) without the other. There are economies where private business does everything for themselves. Everyone of them is a 3rd world country. Successful economies rely on both the public and private sector working efficiently for growth.

Heck our occupation relies on the government. The government regulates (provides a safe playing field for the consumer) and guarantees our sales (see GW). Our word to clients has value because the government regulates and backs up our product line. The government also requires us to hold professional license to protect consumers. Take those away and do we have the same business we have?

----------

"We where founded on the principle of freedom & small government ( no king or queen to rule us) and in this relatively small time in history have become the worlds super power and most productive and wealthiest nation in history. The reason for this is because we are different from all the other socialist / communist government in history."

At the population we're currently at, are you 100% certain we are not still operating with as small a government as possible? You go on to cite very favorable things about America as an economic power.. based on freedom and small government. Can you figure how many people we're over on the government part? Is it entirely possible that we are running at an efficient model right now?

I mean people complain about insurance companies earning 90 billion. The thing is, the 90 billion represents a 2% margin for all monies passing through. Is it too much or too little? 90 billion is a lot of money. 2% is a crappy margin. So which is correct?

 

[toddoxley]

"This reality does not mean that there is not the need for police, fireman, the VA, bridges, defense etc. "

Thank you, I think somebody got it. One is dependent on the other. One can't be successful (growth) without the other. There are economies where private business does everything for themselves. Everyone of them is a 3rd world country. Successful economies rely on both the public and private sector working efficiently for growth.

Heck our occupation relies on the government. The government regulates (provides a safe playing field for the consumer) and guarantees our sales (see GW). Our word to clients has value because the government regulates and backs up our product line. The government also requires us to hold professional license to protect consumers. Take those away and do we have the same business we have?

----------

"We where founded on the principle of freedom & small government ( no king or queen to rule us) and in this relatively small time in history have become the worlds super power and most productive and wealthiest nation in history. The reason for this is because we are different from all the other socialist / communist government in history."

At the population we're currently at, are you 100% certain we are not still operating with as small a government as possible? You go on to cite very favorable things about America as an economic power.. based on freedom and small government. Can you figure how many people we're over on the government part? Is it entirely possible that we are running at an efficient model right now?

I mean people complain about insurance companies earning 90 billion. The thing is, the 90 billion represents a 2% margin for all monies passing through. Is it too much or too little? 90 billion is a lot of money. 2% is a crappy margin. So which is correct?

LGilmore,

I think I understand you now. Is this really what you are saying with all this back & forth.

See below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKjPI6no5ng